Off Topic European Debate Thread

Problem is RoD, you haven't actually addressed his point.

 

I am not a fisherman and so was unsure on what Banksy meant, my point is that Eu restrictions work two ways, thus stopping one country having an unethical advantage over another.

As for the out vote 95% of it seems to me like it is based upon immigration and people being overly patriotic and thus blind to the real world

I understand that people are in two minds but my belief is that we are much better off in than out having listened to both arguments.

 

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A popular singer backs the Out campaign. Who knew. Thanks for that.

 

A poster so bad it's nearly satirical

 

errr Ian Botham,Mr Hargreaves,Joan Collins,Michael Cane,

John Mills, millionaire Labour donor and founder of John Mills Limited (JML), is among the supporters of the Vote Leave campaign, while Joe Foster and John Caudwell, the founders of Reebok and Phone 4U respectively have also backed the Brexit movement.

John Timpson, the CEO and owner of retailer Timpson, Luke Johnson, the chairman of cafe chain Patisserie Valerie, and Nigel Wilson, the CEO of Legal & General, have all expressed themselves in favour of Britain leaving the EU. Oliver Hemsley, CEO of Numis Securities, and Crispin Odey, boss of leading hedge fund Odey Asset Management, have also backed the leave campaign.

Speaking back in 2013, Jim O'Neill, the former chairman of Goldman Sachs's asset management business, indicated the UK should not be afraid of explore the opportunities that are arising outside the union.

"We should not be scared of leaving it [the European Union] and exploring a world without it," he said. "The opportunities that are arising from the dramatically changing world are huge and I don't think quite a lot of people in our area, never mind people in Brussels, are that interested or understand it."

At the time, however, the possibility of a EU referendum was not even on the cards and O'Neill has since indicated his comments should not be interpreted as pro-Brexit.

On 17 February, 80 business and community leaders, including Pasha Khandaker, president of the UK Bangladesh Caterers Association UK, Moni Varma, owner of rice suppliers Veetee, and Tariq Usmani, CEO of Henley Homes, wrote to the prime minister to highlight Britain's EU membership was damaging trade with the rest of the world.

"As long as Britain's trade policy is controlled by the EU, we cannot sign bilateral free trade agreements with Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Australia, New Zealand or for that matter any other non-EU state," the latter said.

"Vested interests on the continent sustain a relatively protectionist policy. We have to apply the EU's common external tariff to exports from Commonwealth countries – hurting consumers here as well as producers there.

 

Even the poles are backing us

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Britain’s Poles appear to be struggling with a sort of Brexit-induced identity crisis. Earlier this month, BBC News showed Poles in Leeds expressing support for Brexit. I’m sure many people would have found this confusing. Aren’t a lot of these Poles in Britain thanks to an EU work permit and therefore benefitting directly from Britain’s EU membership?

Witold Sobkow, Britain’s Polish Ambassador, says Britain’s exit would be problematic for Polish people living in Britain. ‘EU labour rights of 800,000 Poles in the UK would become void if the UK left the EU,’ he says. Their future in Britain would be in the balance. So why are they in favour of Brexit?

It seems Brexit is as appealing to many of Britain’s Poles as it is to Britain’s Brits, and not just in Leeds. They just can’t deny a life outside the EU might suit Britain better.

The most uncompromising of Brexit-backing Poles are those who came to Britain when Poland was still a communist country. Barbara Taylor, a solicitor who has been in London since 1976, is all-out backing Brexit. She accepts that some Poles might have to go home if Britain left the EU, but her mind is made up.

‘The EU reminds me of a totalitarian state, like Poland was when I left,’ she says. ‘Like the Soviet Union, the EU is pushing for complete conformity and unity which I find uncomfortable. Brussels is propagating a destruction of national pride.’

Taylor wants Britain to have its sovereignty back. Whereas in Poland rules and regulations imposed by the communist government stifled personal freedom and economic development, Britain was completely free. Now though, she feels Britain has become restricted by over-regulation from Brussels and association with an anti-competitive Eurozone. It would become stronger with more freedom, less regulation and lower taxes.

And as a lawyer, she feels the loss of sovereignty particularly in relation to the courts which are fast losing credibility as a result of pressure from Brussels. ‘English courts and English judges have become spineless,’ she says, giving the Abu Hamza case as an example. ‘They are terrified of making decisions in contravention to EU law.’

George Byczynski, 26, a lawyer who coordinates an organisation called ‘British Poles’, which has over 22,000 followers on Facebook, is still undecided about Brexit, but says the question of national sovereignty resonates strongly with Poles of all generations: ‘I feel it has been very healthy for the EU to be confronted by Britain on its future and the issues of red tape and bureaucracy, [and] the fading sovereignty of national parliaments.’

Paradoxically, the Polish government and Poles living in Poland want Britain to stay for the same reason Poles living in Britain want Britain to leave. Poland also finds the EU suffocating and supports the move to draw powers from Brussels and hand them back to the EU’s national governments. But Poland likes having Britain in the EU, because Britain is the country that is leading the fight for EU reform in these areas. They need Britain to initiate and fight the battles.

‘Cameron’s proposals prove that an alternative exists, that changes can be made to the EU institutions,’ says Professor Arkady Rzegocki, a political science professor at Krakow’s Jagiellonian University and head of the university’s Polish Research Centre in London. Rzegocki echoes Poland’s government, which counts the UK as a more liberal ally at the negotiating table, a fellow opponent of the ‘ever closer union’ being pushed by France and Germany.

Referring to the latest EU Summit in February, where EU leaders agreed the terms of Britain’s renegotiation, Ambassador Sobkow says Poland now depends on the UK’s continued membership: ‘The solutions adopted in the area of economic management, competitiveness and sovereignty are beneficial from the point of view of Polish. In our opinion, they improve the functioning of the European Union, making it more flexible and competitive.’ Furthermore, Sobkow points out that the package of reforms will come into force only if Britain votes to remain in the EU. If Britain leaves, it will be void.

Barbara Taylor concedes that Poland might want Britain to stay but her allegiance lies with Britain. ‘Although I am Polish, I am also British now – my children are British too – and I can see that the EU is dragging Britain down.’

 

Bloody scary,wake up people.

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RR, you can throw all of these facts out as you like. In fact, I agree with a fair few of them. But unless you actually debate the points others have raised it's completely useless.

 

Add over 120 unis and many scientists, doctors and business leaders

 

Trump and Le Pen are doing very well indeed

 

It's too worrying

If you look at those who want to leave it is those who would love to exploit the ability to mistreat workers and be inhumane to poverty stricken people and those who they don't like

 

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Stop quoting all your propaganda RR

I know that I could do the same but then this thread would just be clogged up with posters

 

true facts MTG true facts,no myths just honest and true facts

Even the BBC are gagging their staff.

Jeremy Paxman WITHDRAWS article critical of European Union from next issue of Radio Times 'after pressure from BBC'

• University Challenge presenter said to have acted over BBC concerns
• His piece for the Radio Times was said to have 'damaged his impartiality'
• But journalist was 'unhappy' at proposed changes by TV executives
• Paxman due to present special report on the EU for BBC One on May 19

By JOSEPH CURTIS FOR MAILONLINE



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Radio-Times-pressure-BBC.html#ixzz48AabRANs
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

Daily Mail has always been heavily biased against foreigners

Your sources are twisting facts, they aren't false but not 100% true

 

one of your own MTG worth reading-


STUDENT
Edinburgh
BLAIR SPOWART
At this year’s National Union of Students conference, the President, Megan Dunn, announced her support for the EU. Students, she said, should support the EU because it “advances and protects the values that Britain’s young people believe in, and is a force for tolerance and respect”.

At first glance, this is odd: What on earth are (supposedly) radical student politicians doing cosying up to an institution which enjoys the support of the Establishment, and multinational corporations to boot? An institution whose unelected commission has been planning – through the Transatlantic trade agreement – to allow US investors to sue European governments for lost profits resulting from social or environmental policy? Isn’t this corrupt, corporatist behemoth every student radical’s worst nightmare?

When you look at some of the similarities between the NUS and the EU, it all begins to make more sense. Both are obsessed with petty regulation. The NUS has signed up to minimum pricing on alcohol, issued an injunction against anonymous social media apps, and banned clapping at one of its conferences. Excessive EU interference has hampered the competitiveness of small-to-medium sized businesses (conveniently, for the multi-nationals) and driven up prices, particularly in the energy industry.

“Students who love Europe, and who want to carry on the centuries-old European tradition of increasing the power of ordinary people over the institutions that govern them, should join me in voting Leave, and help bring the corporatist oligarchy in Brussels crashing down.”

Neither institution is particularly democratic. The NUS recently voted to reject a policy to extend the presidential franchise to its 7 million members, preferring instead to keep elections within a small band of delegates. Similarly, the EU is led by a cosy clique of unelected commissioners. That’s not to mention the EU’s overriding of referenda in France, the Netherlands, and Ireland, its removal and replacement of an Italian government, and, most recently, its imposition of austerity on Greece.

So the NUS’s support for the EU is no real mystery: both see the people they represent as obstacles to be brushed aside. What is truly puzzling however is this: most students rightly consider the NUS to be a farce, and many are campaigning ‘Brexit-style’ for their universities to disaffiliate from it. Yet they still support the EU. Why?

No student is particularly enamoured with the EU. Rather, the thought seems to be this: “Sure, the EU isn’t great, but wouldn’t Brexit mean isolation? Doesn’t the EU at least maintain Europe’s peace?”

Nothing could be further from the truth. I am voting Leave precisely because the Remain camp are acting like Little Europeans, asking us to focus myopically on Europe, a stagnating continent, while the rest of the world grows. I’m also voting Leave because the EU, having outlived its original aim of keeping the post-war peace, is not only exacerbating old tensions, it’s creating new ones.

The EU is not a “coming together” of the European peoples, it’s a coming together of European elites. Forget about reform. Students who love Europe, and who want to carry on the centuries-old European tradition of increasing the power of ordinary people over the institutions that govern them, should join me in voting Leave, and help bring the corporatist oligarchy in Brussels crashing down.

 

Again one sided, twisting the truth and from biased archives

 

A few answers to some points raised.

Cliftonville: - my argument re economics is not based on feeding the wealthy but the basic maintenance of the economy. One of my oldest friends has worked in mental health services dealing directly with the most vulnerable for 25 years so I am well aware of exactly what is happening in this (and other) fields. The simple fact is that if we leave, IMO, there will be even less funding for this type of thing...

Red Robin: re Sadiq Khan, did you actually read the article...? He was talking about the Transport for London board of directors of which there are the princely sum of 16 people, NOT THE TFL WORK FORCE..!!!

RedorDead:- I am guessing you are old enough to remember the Icelandic Cod War. We were the one's pillaging their fishing grounds and not vice versa

Red Robin (again):- re the Poles. They are members of the organisation that I have mentioned more than once here, this being the Visegard Group. The 4 member countries are largely aligned with the UK's position on the EU, take the time to read up on them.

The last fact on it's own means that the UK is not alone in it's fight against the German idea of federalisation and I suspect, as the wheels slowly come off the EU bandwagon, others will join in...

Better to stay in for me and fight from within as a snubbed EU will undoubtedly do everything that it possibly can to put the boot in to the UK

 

I wasn't condemning his point, I've mentioned to him previously to listen to other people's opinions on here (barring one mind) and open his mind to people who have a bit more life experience.
I've told him I like his enthusiasm on these matters but he wants to argue with people's post.
But reading some of this ****e being put on here I'm thinking of an in vote just to laugh at RR