Off Topic Political Debate

You present a good argument for each country having its own border controls.

 

Some of the funding is coming from China and some is due to come from France (EDF), although that is in doubt after the resignation of EDF's FD this morning over this project. It's not even certain to go ahead after the problems EDF are having with the same design on projects in Finland and France. What is the big obsession and fear of the Chinese? Is it OK then to be scared about the Germans owning many of the largest utility companies in Britain. This almost racist campaign by the lefties in Britain against the Chinese is another based on poor facts with the recent mass hysteria about China dumping steel on the world market - what is not said that Italy has been doing it for years supported by subsidies from the Italian government that break EU rules on supporting industries. But still illegal activities by EU governments is perfectly fine - after all the accounts of the EU have never ever been signed off - if that had been a US Corporate, the lefties in Europe would be screaming for them to be jailed.

 

You want me to get down to real facts ok.
3.5 Million jobs in Britain are directly linked to membership of the European single market.
The EU. buys over 50% of UK. exports.
Both American and Asian firms invest in the UK. because it is in the single market.
Commonly agreed EU. standards have led to improvements to the quality of air and rivers. They have also enshrined equal pay and anti discrimination laws into EU. law.
EU. membership gives us more powers to curb the activities of multi national corporations.
The UK. is the 2nd largest beneficiary of EU. research funds for our Universities.
European arrest warrants allow Britain to 'get rid of undesirables`through simple extradition procedures.
The migrant population from the EU. in Britain contributes more financially to Britain's budget than it takes away in form of benefits.
If Britain does have a 'problem' with immigration then it would not go away if Britain left.
The chances of the breakup of the UK. would be increased if Britain left.
If Britain left it would be against the wishes of the younger members of society (all opinion polls suggest that the 18-29 age group are most in favour of staying in) and they will be affected for the longest through this decision.
Many of the refugees currently in Europe come from countries which have either been bombed by British planes at some stage (so called peace keeping missions) - there are even some from former British colonies. So, Britain has more obligation to them than eg. Germany does.

I will be interested to see you trying to refute any of these points.

 

66.66% of the funding is coming from France and 33.33% is coming from China. The French part of the project has been in doubt for months as EDF is in real financial trouble and the state which owns 85% of it cannot easily bale it out yet again. Seeing as the UK is hoping to get 7% of the country's supply from it and is offering guarantees of payment twice as high to the present for each megawatt produced, it does show how desperate the UK is to pay for something it cannot provide for itself. It looks as if it could still go ahead as both Cameron and Hollande want it to, but it would be a political arrangement rather than a commercial one. The UK government could borrow money at a low interest rate from the world markets to invest in it at present, but what the interest rates might be in a couple of years time cannot be forecast as the markets do not like uncertainty.

 

Maybe superhorns could come to the rescue with his vast wealth?

 

Interesting also that the only head of state in the entire World in favour of Brexit is Vladimir Putin. Could there be a connection between this and Ukip's apparent blocking of the scrutiny over party donations ?

 

I only invest in certainties that make me even richer.

 

How can you prove if somebodies job is directly linked to membership of the EU - only jobs that are directly linked are the likes of the Kinnocks and Mandelson and I would be more than happy if someone de-railed their gravy train.
How can you quote polls as being some kind of pre-determined fact? You should remember the recent lesson at the last General Election - and in any case if there is a vote to Brexit and young people did not vote that way, it's called democracy - perhaps they should look at being young in Greece with 50% youth unemployment.
The EU is the fastest declining major economy in the world and Britain imports far more from the EU than it exports - who has the most to lose?
It's another fallacy of the liberal lefties that the illegal immigrants in Europe trying to get into Britain are as a result of British bombing and British Colonialism - Britain has only started bombing ISIS and Government back targets in Syria as part of a coalition that includes Germany, so Syria can hardly be laid at the floor of Britain. Why are Pakistani's crossing from Turkey and spending all that money with people traffickers when they could fly from Pakistan much cheaper - could it be that they have already been denied visa's to enter Britain or have been deported already? Why isn't France looking after North Africans in the Calais camps, after all of it's colonial past there? Why isn't Italy looking after Ethiopians when they first cross from North African? Why isn't Germany looking after those in the Calais camps from their African colonies?
I'm happy for a UK break-up, I supported Scottish independence and if Wales want the same, great stuff.
Last week there was mass criticism of not being able to curb the likes of Google, Apple and Facebook - now you say we do?
Name one company that invests in the UK SOLELY because it's a member of the EU and would immediately leave if there was a Brexit?

 

Again, please show me where the head of state of Cambodia, Chile or Nigeria have stated their opinion on the matter - because if you cannot, your statement is just more scare mongering.

 

China...... erm....

I have first hand knowledge of the human rights issues as perpetrated by the Chinese regime. I have studied much to do with China over the last 100+ years. I have met monks and nuns tortured abused and raped by Chinese authorities because they are non-Han Chinese, members of minorities and 'splittist'. The actions of the Chines Govt towards minorities and dissenters are some of the worst in current history.

Are we going to abandon all values of liberty, decency, equality, religious freedom etc etc. ???

Some of you will know I came into contact and was able to support Tibetan refugees when working for a NGO in South Asia. What I have heard and witnessed puts the extremities of Guantanamo Bay into the shade.

What on earth has this got to do with 'lefties'... a word you often use on these boards w_y. Is someone a leftie because he or she cares for another human being would like them to have the basic rights of any so called developed country. Is someone a leftie because they wish people the freedom to workship as they will, to speak their mother tongue in their own country, to have access to the same opportunities as the million plus outsiders shipped in to take over their mother country. Were those youngsters who stood up for freedom in Tianeman square 'lefties'? No of course not. Are the monks who self-immolate on the streets of Lhasa 'lefties'. Of course not.

What human rights laws are in place in China?

What is it with the political establishment of the UK which seeks to get into bed with some of the most oppressive regimes in the world? It is about time we had a political system which put human values above profit and self-centredness.

One subject I struggle to be unemotional with is China .....

Rant over..... goodnight all

 

Yorkie, this is on the context of Chna's involvement in Britain and the comments made by Cologne. There was a mass of hand wringing in the Guardian and other liberal lefty papers recently about this and including China's funding of large capital projects and the question of dumping steel on the world markets. I do not condone any of the human rights abuses made by China, but will others condemn the human rights record of Turkey, especially on the very day the EU is buying them to make them control their own borders. It seems that some shout about the human rights abuses in some countries whilst turning a blind eye to the same abuse much closer to home - especially n Germany.

 

Have not the UK government been paying off the French to control the UK border? Yes I agree that Turkey does have bad human rights, but they are currently sheltering more than 2.7 million refugees from the civil war in neighbouring Syria. The conditions are quite appalling and some solution has to be found. The scale of the migration is beyond any single country's ability to deal with and really does call for joint action. I cannot guess what the solution might be, but would like to feel that because it is not on our immediate doorstep we do not choose to ignore the misery of the families who have left whatever they did have.

 

W_Y, the 5 largest producers of refugees in the World are Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Somalia and Afghanistan - 4 of those have a direct British involvement in some way, either military or political. Of the receiving countries for refugees Turkey is on second place worldwide with 1.83 Million - so whatever human rights problems they may have in other areas they are playing ball on this one and are cooperating much better with Europe than Britain is. By the way, which ex. German colonies are you referring to here ?

 

Sorry post long walk rant.

HOWEVER.... I do not support trade deals with countries that abuse their citizens.... and China along with Saudi and Israel are some of the worst..... all of which we have money deals with...... methinks the worst side of the human condition.

Incidentally the ONLY country in Europe in the 80s, the Czech republic, which recognised the rights of Tibet was cut out of all deals by the Chinese etc etc. These are facts and Cameron and others cow tow to the Chinese for trade deals and special relationships.

 

Incidentally as an EU member we have much more influence over the human rights of fellow members. Note that Cameron and Co seek to get out of EU human rights deals. Ask yourself why such a thing as human rights agreements would be anathema to the present Govt.

If Turkey or any other country wants to join the EU their human rights record comes under close scrutiny.. one of the reasons they haven't been able to join up to now... and why the Balkan countries were delayed entry.

One good reason to be such a concord as the EU....

So on the basis of human rights the argument to stay in wins for me.

 

So Boris who was so vocal about John Longworth having the right to not represent the members of the BCC and speak his mind, is now shown to have put a gagging order on his staff at City Hall before that event took place. He really does blow with the wind!

 

Incorrect.

Johnson has explained he was only aware of the edict late last night and it ceased to be operative as soon as he was made aware.

It now transpires that one of Cameron's senior aides did contact John Longworth by telephone hours before the British Chambers of Commerce suspended him.

 

Looks rather like more of his bluster to the outside world. As I have said before he works to his own agenda.
So what are you trying to say about Longworth. An aide asked him to speak out against the view of his organization? No wonder he resigned, and in his own words without any pressure from the BCC.

 

Blimey, even by your standards that is some straw clutching...what 4?
Palestine - when was the last British military involvement in Palestine? But I suppose Britain must be to blame for the actions of Israel.
Syria - Britain is part of a military coalition that is bombing terrorist and state terrorist forces, this includes Germany. But this has only been very recently and the civil war in Syria (which has no basis on the problems in Iraq) has been happening for a lot longer. To say that Britain is responsible for causing Syrian refugees is ridiculous.
Iraq - You have a point with Iraq. I have never agreed with the 2nd Iraq war that was supported by the Labour Party and the US lap-dogs of Blair and Brown. Toppling of Saddam (no matter that he was another monster) caused a massive vacuum that allowed terrible civil strife between the various Muslim factions and then allowed ISIS to flourish. But to state that Britain has some overall on-going responsibility for refugees from Iraq is not correct. Many of those fleeing are Kurds and actually are fleeing persecution from the Turks and it's just easy to say they are Iraqi Kurds.
Somalia - Britain's tiny involvement in Somalia was part of a UN peace keeping mission. Since when does that mean that Britain has some kind of responsibility for Somalian refugees? Britain sends millions to Somalia in aid and also supports their government in many ways not reported in the Guardian. A good friend of one of my sons is a Marine and he has spent months in Somalia training some of their forces in trying to combat the Somalian Pirates. Including Somalia is beyond a stretch.
Afghanistan - Again, this was another war started by Blair to support the US and gets no support from me. But there is now a democratic government in Afghanistan that is trying to fight the Taliban and the violence there is back to the way it was before Bush & Blair kicked off. Or do you mean when this country was part of the British Empire - that other old chestnut.
Britain is the worlds largest contributor of aid to refugees in the Middle East, but the aid is spent in Turkey, Jordan & Lebanon with the intent in keeping the refugees much closer to their homes. This is a far better strategy than encouraging them to make these dangerous journeys (as Mad Merkel has done) and swap countries like Greece that have been bankrupted by the EU and then bash Greece for not being able to cope.
Turkey has a terrible human rights record than includes Genocide, mass deportations of Kurds and Armenians - only this week the Government has taken over the largest newspaper in that country and is tear gassing those protesting. Yet this week the EU, led by Merkel is doing a deal with Turkey that will all end in tears - I predict now that the EU will find out that a huge industry of creating fake Syrian passports with start in Turkey and these will be sold to anyone refugee for 2K Euro's so that Turkey can send them to the EU as part of the deal. Do you think they will be able to send back all of the Africans, Afghan's and Pakistani's that will not be allowed to enter the EU? Turkey already has a huge counterfeit industry and this will be needed to replace the boat and life jacket trade. In exchange the EU will pay Turkey Billions of Euros', allow them to enter the EU without visa's and a commitment to fast track their joining of the EU.
Check out Germany's African Colonial past on the WEB, just Google Deutsches Kolonialreich.

 

So is it the scale of the human rights abuse of because you are more aware of it that allows you to draw your personal line? So the human rights of Kurds, Armenians and Greek Cypriots are not so important because Turkey is.....?
As we speak, EU leaders are negotiating with a country that has committed mass Genocide against 2 different national groups, yet all I hear is how what a great job Turkey is doing. Yet in reality we are dealing with a country that is importing ISIS Oil and thus funding them, is turning a blind eye to the people smugglers that are drowning 100's of refugees every week and yet is demanding Billions of Euro's to do more of the same - absolutely nothing.
This whole crisis has shown the EU for exactly what it is - an ineffectual, inefficient and totally corrupt organisation that is only interested in lining their own pockets. I see the next scandal is about to hit - EU burocrat pensions.