IMO Lucas is under-rated by non Liverpool fans and overrated by Liverpool fans. As I've said before, he's developed a great deal over the past couple of years but that does not make him a top/world class DM. Lucas has more to his game than Mascherano but as a specialist DM - Mascherano is better. Yes, Mascherano did give away free kicks but as a DM, you expect this to happen. And even if he did give away free kicks, guess what - the opposition attack stops!
The primary role, I never said the only role. Defensive midfielders are there to defend the midfield traditionally, stop play getting to the final 3rd. It's since more defensive midfielders have entered the game, that the defensive midfielder has had to evolve to include passing and positioning awareness more. Defensive midfielder role is very much like the sweeper pressed further upfield. Watching over play, predicting where the ball is coming and getting in a tackle to break down play. First job done, secondary role is start a new attack, but as long as he breaks down the attack he's done his job.
I'd say that starting new attacks is pretty essential to the role nowadays, although each player plays it differently. It's very difficult to describe the role because it is played so many different ways. The likes of Lucas, Essien, Carrick, Song, De Jong etc. all play it in very different ways. As for Lucas, I do think that passing is key - whereas it is obviously less so for the likes of Song and De Jong.
All I'm waiting for now are the 'pace' WUMs. Lucas was very good last season and is getting better. END OF.......
I have said in a previous post that this position requires a player to foul effectively. Mascha was too rash and would fly in and give silly free kicks away. Makalele was the master at it, he would get in the right position and just stand in the way a free kick would be given but not a yellow card, he would also do this a good distance from the 18 yard box so that any dead ball was not a serious threat. Lucas imo also improved with this tactic last season, he would intentionally foul but nothing bad and more often than not in wider positions and always away from the 18 yard box.
Lucas is a brilliant enigma - and long may he be so. It appears to me that you have all fallen into the same trap that opposing fans, teams and even some managers have done by trying to compare him to others who play in the same area of the pitch. Lucas does not play his role in the same way as De Jong or Mascherano and comparisons are futile. Lucas plays as a pivot for the defense. As attacks build the defense actually takes its shape from him. This is actually the same role that he plays for Brazil - who rate him very highly. Now, in the transition from defense to attack his role is to move the ball on quickly and securely and then find space to make himself available. Kenny loves this as it is the very heart of pass and move. Surging runs and 40 yrad passes are not his responsibility. Last ditch tackles are not his responsibility either he's there to slow attacks and cover holes. In a strange way he reminds me of Ronnie Wheelan. I never truly understood his role and doubted his skill level but Liverpool missed him when he was not on the pitch and struggled.
Masch seemed to be a bit of a hot head, like that game at old stratford that time. Lucas does appear to play hard with no anger or malice. Didi was the master, i remember he could win the ball and on so many occasions the player he stole it from would harrass him to get the ball back, he'd shield it, almost toying with them, and eventually win us a free kick. One of our best signings ever.
You sound like Andy Gray saying, "Man-to-man is better than zonal because you know who to blame." But you still leaked a goal! So you're saying it's okay for Masch to give away a foul because he was *trying* to get the ball back? What's the breakdown for both players? I've seen a number of times when Gerrard has given the ball away. I've seen a number of times when other have been bullied off the ball. I've seen Lucas bully people off the ball, such as for Gerrard's third Napoli goal, which was Lucas getting forward, tacking with muscle, winning the ball and it leading to a goal. So again I say show some figures. For example, "Lucas only passes sideways and backwards" goes the cliche - 1190 forward, 66.33%; 148 backward, 8.25%; 87 left, 4.85%; 369 right, 20.57%. Hopefully now we've got Downing he'll up his passes left. Aquilani is a great passer but he's soft. I'd say being top five in the league for successful passes and tackles is more than just "good." Both Lucas and Masch were top five in the league in '09-'10. They have to be all-rounders so clearly don't excel at one aspect. That's not a bad thing, despite you presenting it as such.
What I miss about Didi was his ability to win the ball back high up the pitch. He broke opposition down quickly which gave them little time to recuperate, Lucas still needs to improve in this area although he did it quite well against Chelsea.
Go watch Lucas' passes Vs Fulham, they had plenty of range and accuracy if you ask me, they were also perfectly weighted and lead to two of the five goals. His pass for Gerrard against Newcastle wasn't bad either.
Is everyone sure the 'Lucas' in question is our Lucas? There has been reports about the 'other' Lucas moving clubs.. It wouldn't make sense to say our Lucas is leaving, purely ridiculous.
Lucas and Spearing were fantastic against Fulham - probably their best games for Liverpool. My concern is that they don't display this enough.
009. It wasn't just Lucas and Spearing that played well against Fulham at the Cottage.It was the whole team,It was definitely our best away performance bar the one at SB.
You were trying to compare Mascherano and Lucas in that they both lose the ball but in different ways. I'm stating that when Mascherano 'loses' the ball, is when he tries to win it back but ends up giving away a foul. A defensive midfielder fighting to win the ball - who would have thunk it?? Whereas Lucas gets caught out in possession when he's under pressure. If you can't see the difference between the two, then this argument is a lost cause. With regards to giving you stats and numbers, I'm afraid I can't as I don't trawl through loads of websites. All I have are my eyes, which I use when I watch Liverpool matches. Stats only paint half the picture e.g.: FACT: Lucas has a high pass completion rate. THOUGHT:Michael Carrick also has a pass completion rate of over 80%. Do you rate him? FACT: Lucas was among players who made the most number of tackles last season THOUGHT: Would he need to make so many tackles if he and the team kept the ball better? Ultimately, we struggled to keep possession last year.
LFC009. Thats the sole reason why Kenny signed Charlie Adam.....He wants the ball moved quicker due to a tempo being set,he wants the side to dictate in away games to prevent it from being over-run ie caught in posession.The reason for the need to tackle was the midfield was flat and static,Charlie Adam will make it more fluid.
I agree. I was very happy that we got a player like Charlie Adam and for £8m. He's a more direct replacement for Alonso than Aquilani and I do feel Lucas will benefit from playing alongside Adam.
Perish the thought that I would intrude on a private argument, but I've read the above several times and I still don't know what you are trying to say. Both Mascherano and Lucas can be pressurised off the ball if they are left exposed. The difference may be that whilst Mascherano would then hunt the ball (and maybe give away a foul), Lucas is more likely to to re-position himself. Bringing Carrick into the equation is really a red-herring. Would reina need to make so many saves if the defense did its job? Just a silly question
