Off Topic Political Debate

My jibes are at politicians who are fair game, all of them and I will not complain about any comments about Dave being an Eton boy etc.
But your insults are aimed at ordinary voters and just because they have a different opinion to yours.

 

Hmm...So according to you, anyone you insult is fair game but anyone I insult isn't, following a completely unwritten rule that you just made up.

Seems fair.

 

I just happened to be watching Newsnight last Friday when they showed pictures of the meeting with Cash, Farage and that "towering figure of the left" George Galloway. They showed the bad reception and people getting up to leave when Galloway came on stage. Next morning the Mail reported it for an hour and how stewards had been asked to lock the doors to prevent people getting out, then suddenly it was taken down from their web-site. Clearly this event did not fit in too well with Mail policy of anti-EU.

Saturday and Sunday morning I also had a look at what the European commentators said about the deal that the UK achieved. Their view was, by a large majority, that the leaders of the other countries had given away too much. Clearly there was a gulf between the continental press and the British, but then the press over here do not seem to believe that they exist to influence opinion so much as to report news. Yes there are left and right leaning papers, but there is not the same degree of the biased opinion you see in the UK.

There is plenty of space for the readers to comment on the web sites and you can see all shades of opinion. As someone who stood in elections as an Independent and spent years on councils, I refused to speak to newspapers unless it was over something non-political. I refuse to make my judgements on what the papers say, preferring to explore unbiased sources of information. It takes time, but the sound bites of politicians and newspapers are not telling the whole truth, and I fear that when the vote comes people will still not really know what they are voting for.

 

No, please read what I wrote again. I said that politicians are fair game - of any political flavour. But you insist on insulting ordinary voters that have a different opinion to yours. So no rules, but if you feel the need, just carry on.

 

Was the robin an unbiased source of information?

 

No, even a fool could have seen what a total fiasco the event turned out to be.

 

This sums up the IN argument for me better than I could....

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

 

''What did the Romans ever do for us`` ?

 

Oh yes sh@t: Latin O level

 

As there are over 120 days before the referendum I think it is a good time to remind everyone to keep the debate at the highest intellectual level possible.
Unfortunately the 'gesiers' or 'inners' got off to a bad start yesterday and resorted to insults and talking to themselves.
To those brave souls fighting to protect the sovereignty of the British Parliament take heed from that well known 20th century bi-lingual philosopher Del Boy, 'Who Dares Wins"

 

But how many of them really work and how many do you believe Yorkie? For instance, "cheaper air travel" in reality that is in place DESPITE the EU bureaucrats - read the story about how easyJet started.

 

Since when was cheap air travel desirable in times when Co2 reduction should be our major aim ?

 

I thought it was a better starting point than my list..


Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; YES
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; YES AS PART OF THE GENERAL EXPENDITURE THIS COMES BACK
clean beaches and rivers; MMMM
cleaner air; MMM
lead free petrol; YES.... STANDARD AGREED
restrictions on landfill dumping; YES.... STANDARD AGREED
a recycling culture; YES.... STANDARD AGREED
cheaper mobile charges; ACROSS EUROPE YES
cheaper air travel; TAXES ETC REDUCE/SCRAPPED
improved consumer protection and food labelling; YES.... STANDARD AGREED
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; PROBABLY STRONGER THANT UK ALONE WOULD DO
better product safety; YES.... STANDARD AGREED
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; YES
break up of monopolies; MMMMM
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; YES
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; YES....VERY IMPORTANT
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; DITTO
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; YES FOR WORK
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; YES... BIG IN H.E. MANY STUDENTS ACTUALLY GET CHEAPER EDUCATION IN THE EU
access to European health services; YES..... I HAVE SEEN THIS AT WORK
labour protection and enhanced social welfare; YES
smoke-free workplaces; YES.... STANDARD AGREED
equal pay legislation; YES
holiday entitlement; YES
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; YES
strongest wildlife protection in the world; YES
improved animal welfare in food production; YES
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; YES
EU representation in international forums; FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; YES
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; UP TO A POINT
European arrest warrant; YES
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; YES... MUCH MORE JOINED UP NOW
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; COULD IMPROVE
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; YES... UP TO A POINT
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. IN LESS WELL OFF COUNTRIES... WE PAY FOR THIS
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. VERY IMPORTANT
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. DITTO


So a lot of this is sound. I am sure we would have done a lot of this anyway in the policy area.... BUT at least we have agreed standards across Europe.

 

But many of these were in place in Britain long before the various "treaties" that changed the Common Market into the EU - particularly the undemocratic Lisbon Treaty. For instance the European Arrest Warrant is part of British Law and Britain has pushed Extradition treaties far more than most EU countries - it is not so long ago that Spain would not extradite British criminals from the Costa's. Trying to claim that these are only in place because of the EU is rather a stretch, some are only in place in the EU because of Britain...who jhas the most to lose?

 

As a small boy, I used to collect stamps as my older brother was an avid collector. One of the first First Day Covers I acquired, celebrated the creation of EFTA. How have we been railroaded from EFTA & then a Common Market to a European Federal State with ever growing Political union?

 

When you have to pay for it?

 

Ouch

 

I agree that we should remain in the EU. Yorkie, but I am a little sceptical of the record of the EU. on environmental matters. If you have walked around England and seen its thousands of miles of hedgerows and then compared this to the huge monocultural fields found in France and Germany (which are, in effect, deserts to all insect life) then you will understand what I mean. The EU. agricultural subsidies are, at present, anti environmentalist in that they over emphasize mass dairy farming at the expense of everything else. Also the scrapping of taxes on fuel used for air travel can hardly be described as environmentally friendly (cheap subsidized kerosene is not what the environment needs). I think that the UK. would be 'cleaner' inside the EU. than outside - but I do not think the same applies to Switzerland - which already has higher environment standards than the EU. European free trade often means the senseless ritual exchanges of products which countries already possess eg. French wine to Italy (and the same in reverse) - all of it transported unnecessarily over the Alps by lorry. Switzerland did the right thing in saying that all transit freight would have to be transported by rail in future (eg. between Germany and Italy) - a stance which would not be possible if they were EU. members.

 

I fully appreciate my question is very trivial in the big scheme of things but as football fans it does affect us all. If we were to leave would it have any imapct upon our being able to sign players from EU countries? Genuine question - no scare story intended but I honestly don't know the answer and wondered if others did.

 

Cannot see why footballers would be stopped from getting a work permit the same as anyone other profession or as with players from outside the EU today - we already have players in this position. Also with all the money sloshing around the EPL, it greases lots of wheels!