See Goldie's answer.............plus............I don't care if we're marginalised, even though I don't think we will be. I simply want us out of this ever closer political union. The whole house of cards is destined to collapse anyway imo.
Blame all the immigration from the EU for that. When you leave, places like Bradford etc won't exist.
I'm just waiting for someone, anyone, to present their view, whether in or out, with a positive argument rather than 'the economy will collapse if we leave' or 'we'll be flooded with immigrants and run by faceless bureaucrats if we stay'. As I've said before, your self governance line is a coherent matter of principle, just as ever closer union is. The rest of it is just politics. I heard one politician arguing that the referendum is a 'matter of conscience'. Balls, especially for politicians. The leave campaign is a disorganised disaster zone, and Cameron's renegotiation is a joke. If we stay in nothing much will change, the outers will still be going on about it and claiming it's a fix, and the whole thing will start again at the next treaty renegotiation, which is in about 5 years I think, a much more logical time to hold this debate. If we leave there will be some short term economic turmoil, and some very messy extraction discussions, then we will see where we stand. In about 5 years.
Did I claim this was anything to do with the EU? The problem is that sections of the Muslim community refuse to integrate. It's getting worse with each generation. In case you think mine is a racist comment, listen to the (black) ex-chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips who said that “unlike others in Britain” Muslims “will not integrate in the same way.” It's oil and water. There's a separate problem with radical Islamist gangs in British prisons that are intimidating inmates into becoming Muslims on threat of violence. Prisons are becoming a breeding ground for extremism. This problem is just coming onto our government's radar
Thankfully, your comments cannot be construed as racist/racialist as Islam is a religion and not a race, Goldie. Theodore Dalrymple wrote an interesting essay on multiculturalism in which he concluded that, because there were so many immigrants arriving on these shores from myriad countries and speaking myriad tongues, it was simple common sense that the onus should be on the immigrant to adapt to the language and customs of this country and not the other way round. It is unreasonable to expect the British people to adapt for the immigrants because which immigrants do you adapt for: the Polish, Albanians, Indians, Syrians, Turks, Latvians, Cornish? But unfortunately that is what has happened, particularly where language is concerned, be it road signs, government literature or even school books. We have not done nearly enough to actively promote integration and, because of this, have encouraged immigrants to build home from homes over here. This is not racist; it is a simple statement of fact. I previously wrote about a former colleague of mine of Pakistani descent whose elderly grandmother was admitted into hospital somewhere Oop Narth. When I enquired as to her progress he said that she was confused in hospital because she couldn't speak English. Oh dear, said I, how long had she been living in this country? Since 1964 was the reply. There are whole communities in this country closed off from the rest of us, where women are presumably kept under a degree of control by their menfolk by staying at home, not having a job, never straying any further than the end of their own street and never having to learn any language other than their native tongue. Who is in the wrong here: those that find this lack of integration appalling, or those that come here but seemingly have such contempt for our culture that they'll do little to find common ground with us?
Apart from learning English (which obviously all immigrants living here should, just as all Brits living abroad should learn the local language) how should these groups integrate Ubes?
They could try dressing in Western clothing rather than burkas. They could try getting into football. They could try living with us rather than in their own communities. They could try not eating swans. They could try adopting more of our customs, like getting pissed up on a Friday night and putting traffic cones onto police cars. They could go ginger and dream of being a pipe-smoking vicar in a Victorian country village.
Why should anyone have to anything if they don't want to, or it's too difficult and you can get by without it. You tried learning Chinese? Live and let live. You don't need to speak anything but English many places. If you live in Britain there are many languages you can get by with too. A Chinese will have it nearly as difficult learning English as you Chinese. Many can express what they want with their mouths firmly shut. Many will want to learn the native language.Whatever rocks your boat. You all got ants in your pants in England now? Get up and dance, shake your arse, the ants will fall out and then maybe you can relax.
Yes I have tried learning Chinese. I studied Cantonese full time for 6 months 1983-84. Not easy, but hardly impossible. I had to pass an exam in it for my job. It's much easier learning a language when it's spoken all around you than for an hour a week at school. As you of all people should know. In addition to getting much more out of being where you are, it's simple good manners. I bet you speak enough Thai to be polite, and I'm sure your Norwegian is fluent. Even though most people speak excellent English in Scandinavia in my experience and you probably don't need to bother. " why should anyone have to do anything if they don't want to, or if it's too difficult"? Are you for real? Presumably your kids never got out of bed for their teenage years if that's your philosophy. Actually it was a serious question Ubes, though I know it's hard to tell sometimes. I'm really not sure what we mean by 'integration'. Being mindful and respectful of the traditions and culture of your hosts must be part of it. Anyway, what's wrong with eating swans? There is a long English tradition of it.
Yeah, I know it was a serious question. I'd be interested in whether you have any thoughts on the subject. I have a number of friends and acquaintances that quite simply wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire if I really told them what I think about their children, or how tidy they keep their house, or their taste in partners, or their choice in music, or their politics, or what they find acceptable in life. I suspect that many or all of them hold opinions about me that they choose to keep to themselves too. But the relationship endures because they and I focus on the areas of common ground, the intersecting areas of the Venn diagram if you will. Nevertheless, the relationships that are the strongest are those having the largest intersecting areas and the most fragile relationships are where that area is smallest. There's nothing exceptional in this; it's like that for most people and most of their relationships. All those people preaching about how wonderful immigration is must surely also acknowledge that immigration is most successful where there is the most common ground between peoples, and that requires both sides to make an effort to find that common ground. Maybe I should start eating swans.
England has become one very daft place IMO I can't think of a country worse effected by anxiety and including me it's full of moaners
I'm hoping that the politicians will underestimate how many people, especially the English, will vote purely on sovereignty and principle mate.
I hope you're not including me among the moaners, Paul? If you are then I'm gonna go on about it all bloody week.
Lecture? Hardly. Just a not too serious suggestion. But dancing is both good exercise and good relaxation. We'll be in England soon, looking forward to the beers, Indian curries, dancing if we are lucky, and the season's last game at LR I hope, though looks like it will be a pre -season friendly at the moment.
I thought you were talking about adult migrants learning the local language. Kids will most normally learn it easily from their friends before they even reach school age, as long as they are not in an expat nursery, or where all the other infants on the block come from the same place as them. If not they should learn it at school. Adult immigrants should be given every encouragement to learn the local language, but I doubt forcing it down people's throats is the way to go. You are very clever with languages if you learnt Chinese as an adult away from China, way above average I should think.
And they could stop demanding that Sharia law should apply within the realm. And could stop calling non-Muslims, "infidels". And they could start moving out of (affluent) ghettos and mix a with non-Muslims. And they could respect equality of the sexes, and not blame as "asking for it" a 13 year old white girl who has been raped and beaten by a dozen Pakistani men in Keighley, reported this week (part of a dangerous pattern of Pakistani/Asian men abusing white children). Even in medieval times, this country did not have such a low and abusive attitude to the female sex. For those many Muslim citizens that do integrate and take on decent values, I have the greatest respect. For the others, they need to change or move to an Islamic country where no doubt they will find the quality of life they are looking for.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought your 'why should...' phrase was more general than learning a language as an adult. I was living in Hong Kong mate, there would be very little motivation to learn Cantonese elsewhere. Sadly I have very little facility with languages other than the willingness to have a go. The fact that I have forgotten nearly all my Cantonese, and my Italian which used to be OK is now extremely ropey through lack of use, is testimony to that. No one can be forced to learn anything, but they can be incentivised to. The bar for citizenship should be set high regarding language in my view. Let's face it, this is, as Uber pointed out, primarily an issue for Muslim women, especially those from poor and strictly religious families. Even Cameron understands this. They may have the ability to learn, but they are denied the opportunity by the ignorance of their culture. Did I miss a news story about swans? Please enlighten me. Your common ground argument is a good one, though it tends to treasure homogeneity, which I am personally not so interested in. We are in a new situation, because of the numbers of new immigrants, the speed with which they are arriving and the impact they have on the localities where they live, particularly public services. In the past I would have said give it a generation, these will be valuable members of society - I remember the concern when we took in thousands of Ugandan Asians (one of our finest hours in my opinion), who singles them out now? Historically the majority of immigrants have been highly motivated to get on, and to do that they do well in education and 'integrate'. I don't need them to 'assimilate' i.e. forget their heritage entirely. Some groups, like the ultra Orthodox Jews of Stamford Hill(just about the poorest and worst educated community in the country, apparently), never integrate. Religion is always at the root of it, and you know my views on that. As long as the numbers are very small, it's of their own free will and they don't harm the rest of us, it's tragic for them in my view but I can live with it. Your original point that we have a particular problem with Muslims is the issue for me. The EU migrants will either eventually integrate or take the cash and go home. Presumably leaving the EU (as I suspect we have to) will sort this, though we will need to find workers for certain jobs from somewhere. Many (but far from all) Muslim communities seem to lack the traditional migrant qualities of hard work and ambition and remain in poverty and ignorance for generations, even if they speak English. It's the ****ing religion. I have no idea how to tackle it, and it's driving me mad. For people already here, for most the answer is time, which is testing for our patience. Otherwise I think we are justified in saying that the intensity of the debate about immigration as well as the impact allows us to place stringent tests and limits on new immigration. These would apply to the French as well as Nigerians. You have to have confirmed work before you come here, on a fixed term contract, and a ticket home. Getting citizenship through 'naturalisation' I.e time served, no longer works. Dual citizenship for only a very limited list of other countries, if any. Only citizens, or people who will not draw a state pension, can retire in the UK. Clear, strict and enforced visa requirements. Etc etc I hate all of these things of course. This is a really challenging topic for me. All my instincts say one thing but I can't pretend there isn't a very real and very divisive problem, and I don't believe it is driven by racism and xenophobia in the most part. But the language and vitriol with which some of the views are expressed, including on this thread, sparks a knee jerk reaction in me. Sorry for the long ramble.
