No one is expecting an instant improvement when Wenger goes but I'd rather Arsenal not stagnate under Arsene's archaic philosophy because we continue to come up short in both the league and champions league. We need a breath of Fresh air unless 4th/3rd place obscurity is an achievement to you lot.
The problem for me is that whilst Wenger has his faults, he does far more right than he does wrong. So if you replace him and you want to improve on 4th/3rd and last 16 of the CL, then you need to get a manager who not only does everything at least as well as Wenger does, but also improves on the areas where he has faults. Arsenal fans are notoriously critical of our manager and performances/results. How long would a new manager be given to attain a better record than Wenger ? My thoughts are, that if we sacked Wenger and took a punt on a 'breath of fresh air' we'd likely be in a far worse position that we are now and could end up in Utd type situation where their second manager in quick succession is looking like he's going to lose his job. Don't get me wrong, Wenger will need to be replaced at some point and I'm open to the debate of who that should be. I just don't think banding around unattainable targets is helpful, and taking a punt on an unknown is a massive risk.
Agreed Sadly this cause of this scepticism has been brewing for a number of years. If not around 08/09, then by 011/012.
With all due respect, Piskie, you're stating this so matter-of-factly. You may think he does far more right than wrong, but others have legitimate reasons to think otherwise. A lot of pundits and people who analyse football matches, like the editor of ZonalMarking & Arseblog, have continuously asked questions of Wenger's tactics, in-game management and record in the transfer market. We may not have the experience of managing a club like he does, but that does not mean that every choice he makes is correct or that he is exempt from critique. Sometimes he has done better than we expect, but other times he has not and the reasons generally seem to stem from his own decision-making. It's as if we're going one step forward, and one step backwards. And this is the problem - it has been like this for a long time now and people are sick of this repetitive, tedious cycle. Again, this is all conjecture. All theoretical. No-one has said sack Wenger tomorrow so I'm not sure why you mentioned this in a previous post. But a manager would be given a while to bed in, acclimatise to the division and country if they were a foreign and they should be given time to make their mark on their team. If Arsenal have persisted with Wenger for so long, they would surely show the same patience, courtesy and understanding to a brand new manager filling in for someone who had been at the club for two decades. Your argument assumes that we will appoint a dinosaur like van Gaal and that, it seems your default position is that we would be considerably worse without Wenger. Well he's going to have to leave at some point, so we'll have to find out sooner or later, but we can't continue with the lack of meaningful progression. What about managers that have joined clubs and look the perfect fit? Pocchetino is doing a very good job at Spurs, Ranieri is doing an excellent job at Leicester, West Ham have become a tough proposition under Bilic. There's probably more. I'm not saying we should have got these managers, but what I am saying is that there are countless examples of new managers doing well once the predecessor has left. As with most things in life, you never know unless you try.
If he was getting more wrong than right, we wouldn't be 3 points off the top and looking forward to a last 16 tie in the CL against Barcelona, I think that much is fairly straight forward. I agree that he has faults (show me a manger that doesn't) And you're right to point out that fans don't have the same experience or knowledge that a manager sees day in day out in football. A lot of the pundits opinions are given in hindsight, but again they are exempt from the reality of the situation in the moment and without having all the details. It's easy to criticise from the outside. The one step forward, one step back doesn't hold for me, it's a convenient soundbite but doesn't actually describe our situation. In the last couple of seasons, we've signed two world class players and won two major trophies, so it's small steps forward if anything. Some members on here would have had Wenger gone a long time ago, and there are those who would want him gone tomorrow if possible. How long would a new manager be given to bed in ? Would fans accept us finishing outside the top 4 and missing out on CL football for a couple of seasons ? and if so, then why get rid of a manager who's given us that for the last 18 years ? I'm not assuming we'd appoint a dinosaur at all, what I am saying is that in order to be better, we would have to appoint a manager that does everything at least as well as Wenger AND improve on the areas that he has faults in. Spurs, Leicester and West Ham were very very average before their new managers came in. Leicester spent most of last season looking like they were going to get relegated. If those new managers had come in and done roughly the same, nobody would have batted an eyelid. They've done well granted, but there's a whole world of difference improving a midtable/bottom half club and turning a top 4, Champions league team into League winners and Champions League winners.
LVG is only a few points off top 4. Is he doing more right than wrong? You have zero criteria for knowing that AW does more than right than wrong. It boils down to, again, you being fine with what Wenger is producing, being satisfied that he's somehow doing something vaguely impressive because you have low expectations.
LVG has spent massive amounts to play boring football and still isn't in the top 4, he's massively underachieving. His own players, fans and even himself have admitted that they play boring football. At least one of his players has come out and said he's not playing at a level anywhere near what he could be under LVG. Wenger is doing more right than wrong, because if we was doing more wrong that right, we would be struggling to be in the top 4 (like LVG) out of the CL (like LVG) and have players complaining (Like LVG). I don't have low expectations, I have high expectations. I want to win the league (we could actually do that this year) I also have a sense of reality and don't simply assume that it would suddenly be all rosy simply by getting rid of Wenger, it's far too simplistic to suggest that we'd suddenly improve, just by getting rid of him.
If he was doing more right than wrong, we would have brought in an additional DM and striker in the Summer that would have had time to bed in. If he was doing more right than wrong, we would have taken the initiative with our rivals performing poorly and pulled away from the pack by now. If he was doing more right than wrong, we would not have players that crumble when the pressure is on us to maintain top spot. If he was doing more right than wrong, we would have actually managed to score against Chelsea - something which we haven't done since 2013 nor have we beaten them for five years. If he was getting more right than wrong, we wouldn't be getting knocked out of the group stage for five, looking like six, consecutive years. Wenger has done the minimum that has been expected of him over the last 6/7 years, but whether he can actually get this team to go beyond that is something that is in his hands, with his player selections and tactics. I'd rather not have a manager stifling the potential of this team as a result of bad decisions that generally require simple solutions. Winning back-to-back FA Cups is a very good achievement, but the real bread and butter is the league and the problem I have is that we are so close to tasting success in the league by winning it, but Wenger never seems willing to make that extra step to force the issue. This has happened for both the 2013/14 and 2014/15 seasons where poor decisions at critical times of the season ended up costing us. You may think they are only minute things, but they make the whole world of difference in the long run. He does nothing to properly address the deficiencies within the squad. Indeed there is. And given that we have the 7th highest revenue in Europe, usurping Chelsea, large cash reserves and a wage bill identical to City's, we should be getting closer to the latter. It remains to be seen whether we will, but the past would suggest that we don't have the fortitude to do so. The point however about those clubs is that they have still seen significant improvement in terms of style of play and acquisitions as a direct consequence of a change of manager.
I could go through your comment point by point, but suffice to say that, with respect, it's very speculative and talks about could have, should have and 'simple solutions'. I've pointed out that it's very easy for pundits and fans to have an opinion based on their limited knowledge and in hindsight. Much harder to actually do the job and get it right. I maintain that Wenger is getting more right that he's getting wrong. I do share some of the frustrations. But I don't think people appreciate just how wrong it could go if he was getting more wrong that right. We have a little way to go to be as successful as we want, but a very long way to drop if we get it wrong. As I've said, I share some of the frustrations, but I don't assume that I know better and I don't advocate the 'crack a nut with a sledgehammer' approach that some seem to be advocating. Sacking the manager and getting rid of the board, I mean come on ? What do people think would actually happen if we did that ? The idea that it would somehow improve our situation is just ludicrous.
How do you know that without LVG United wouldn't be 10th? You don't. We have also played quite a lot of poor, boring football this season. Not as much or as consistently as United mind, but we have. Which, given the 'harmony' you're claiming we have compared to United isn't particularly impressive. How do you know that? Again, you've just decided out of nothing that what Wenger is achieving right now is impressive and only happening because he's there. How do you know that without Wenger we wouldn't be 5 points clear at the top and finishing top of the CL group? We have two world class players and quite a few other top drawer ones, as well as heaps of cash to buy and pay salaries of other top drawer players. Any competent manager could achieve something vaguely impressive with that. In fact - if Wenger came anything other than top 2 this season I'd class it as possibly his worst season with us ever given the shocking attempts by any team to actually try and win this league. And it will be a league probably lost to City right at the end so that Wengerites can say 'look how close we were... next year is our year'. More right than wrong? You're having a laugh, the same way you were when you said Koeman was a better manager than Poch. I'm sure we'll last in that competition significantly longer than United. 2 matches longer in fact. And it will be a first leg trouncing followed by a plucky second leg victory but ultimate aggregate loss so that Wengerites can say 'look how close we were... next year is our year'. You only know about one public complainee which wasn't actually attributed concretely to any one specific player. You don't know how many United or Arsenal players are unhappy privately. Complete guesswork so a pointless comment. You can say that first sentence if you want... it doesn't change the fact that everything you write screams of low expectations and being afraid of change. You've made a bizarre statement several times that the 'evidence points towards changing a manager making you worse off'. Complete nonsense, or no clubs would ever change managers.
Well, you make several inaccurate assumptions, misquotes and accusations, but there you go, that says more about your opinion than it does mine. Also for everything that you're claiming I'm speculating on, you're doing exactly the same. We could just go round and round in circles all day, but that would be pointless. The facts are that we are 3 points off the top of the league and in a better position that we were last season.
Of course there are just as many assumptions being made by me as you. But at least mine are vaguely linked to past trends that don't look like changing. Yours are just linked to blind hope. The facts are we haven't won the league for 12 years. We've not won for three games in the league and only have 18 points from the last 10 league games. We'll unlikely get past the last 16 of the CL yet again (conjecture but highly unlikely) after yet again not finishing top of our CL group (though last year proves the calibre of opponent in the last 16 makes little difference these days to our chances of winning a knockout tie). There is very little evidence to suggest anything significantly different will happen this season compared to any of the past 12 and that's competing against some of the weakest top teams in years. Wenger has a proven track record of not winning the league (because he hasn't), not getting anywhere near the CL (because he hasn't) and not making enough of the correct signings in the correct positions quickly enough (because he hasn't). Hoping that things will be different this year is wishful thinking.
This thread is called 'halfway through the season - how's it going ?' So the facts are that we're 3 points from the top, in the KO stages of the champions league and in the next round of the FA cup. Anything else is just speculative conjecture.
That's really just it. Live for now. Wenger's modus operandi. Based on our track record, we can expect any attempt at the big prizes to crumble away from February onwards. I don't see the FA Cup as a big prize. At least not in this day and age. However it seems to be just about the only trophy we can go for. That's about sums up Wenger's current ability incidentally which sadly has become our sole capability as a club. It won't change until we change him. However, some fans seem to choose to ignore the man's shortcomings and prefer to see it differently. How long before they come round to realising that Wenger is finished as a top manager. Top four just about, perhaps. Top, sadly and definitely not.
If you manage to hire a manager as good as Wenger then you are right. But why do you think that you can? There are hundreds of average managers out there, some good ones and about 3 exceptional ones. Just like any other facet of human life the distribution is always like that. Knowing which one you are going to get is almost impossible and the risk of getting a bad one is high. Liverpool were in exactly the same situation you are in now about 20 years back and are now definitely worse.
We are 3 points off of the top of the league. We have just signed a DM and we have Sanchez, Cazorla, Coquelin, Wilshere, Welbeck all coming back. I'd say we're in a better position this year to really challenge for the league than we have been for many years. Nobody is ignoring the faults Wenger has, show me one person who says it's all perfect ? and show me a manger who get's everything perfectly right. I understand some of the frustrations. What I don't share is the opinion that sacking the manager and board is going to solve those frustrations or improve our situation, in fact I think it would do the exact opposite.
Mine are also facts thanks. Or is not a fact we haven't won the league for 12 years or done anything in Europe? We're half way through a season that is following the same pattern as every other season. Some quality players playing good football winning a lot of football matches, let down by injuries, a sub-standard squad and a below-par manager. If we match our current points per game tally in total we'll be on about 73 points. If we continue our recent form we'll be lucky to reach 70. Thankfully we'll probably win the pointless 'we won the most points in calendar year 2016' title again and that will be further welcome and pointless ammunition for the Wengerites.
A few years ago on the back of our move to the Emirates fans were calling for Wenger make some big money signings. And to stop selling our best players. Both of these things hav actually happened. We have also started winning trophies again. (Only the FA Cup I suppose) To claim 'nothing has changed' is a lie. Now I would agree with 'Brunel' that we should be strengthening the squad to further our chances of winning the league. But we all know Wengers hesitency when it comes to making transfer decisions. He does however still make some superb signings. During 2015 Arsenal amassed more points and more wins than any other team. Is it good enough? No. But is it progress?.. I would say yes.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ldn-t-scoff-Manchester-United-happen-too.html Although I hate the Daily Tory. I agree with Martin Samuel on this.
