How long should Ron get to turn things around?

One guy lays on three clear cut chances every game, but the striker on the end of them misses all three. Total sitters missed, through no fault of the guy laying on the chances. But another guy lays on just the one clear cut chance, and that same striker doesn't miss that time.

At the of each game, the first guy (who created three times as much as the other guy) finishes with a no assists. An "assist percentage" of 0%. The other guy finishes the game with one assist. An "assist percentage" of 100%. Those statistics taken in isolation would tell that you the second guy is infinitely better than the first guy.

In fact, if you wanted to take the scenario even further, you could say that the second guy's one chance created wasn't even a clear cut chance. He just happened to be the guy who rolled the ball two yards sideways for the striker to then do his thing and create his goal himself. (And this in itself is another argument against statistics. Statistics might tell you what and when, but they're lacking in the how, amongst many other things (the opposition, the state of the game, the importance of the game, who your other players are etc etc)).

 

Who needs eyes and a manager when you have stats!?

 

I just copied the same comment I made the day after that particular game. Believe me, I'm not throwing my toys, or aiming this at your comments. It was just a lightly satirical comment, aimed at my feeling that that particular ten minutes doesn't warrant the clamour for this comeback. That on it's own was not for me a clear enough display of a return to form. He's shown me he's too lightweight and not a game changer over time in this league, so I respect Ron's decision not to play him, that's all. I agree that Gazzaniga had enough of a shot of confidence from his previous game recently to be given the next game. I didn't think Ramirez did really, even though I was grateful for that assist, about which I acknowledge some players may not have exhibited the same good decision-making. I will accept that maybe Ron is being stubborn about it - perhaps he is being unreasonable, or perhaps Gaston's attitude isn't as good as I believe it is - who knows?

Why are you mentioning Lallana?

 

When was the last time Saints scored a goal off one of their arses? I don't remember one in the last few decades, so that makes me worried if we're waiting around for that.

 

Frank Worthington 1983/84 home to Wolves or Birmingham. He hadn't scored until he tripped over the keeper and the ball hit him and trickled in just over the line... Well that's what I remember as a 14/15 year old anyway

 

Even Spurs, just so we all know, have only won seven of 17 games. This is really the main upsetting point for me: not the fact we are dropping points, as that happens and I feel there are way worse teams than us, but the fact that this is such a missed opportunity. We really needed to build and develop on last season, and we would easily have been the best-placed team to break the top four, alongside Leicester (who would clearly still be a surprise at the top). As it stands, we blew that chance massively, as we blew our shot at Europa (which was nicely primed to be our instant excuse should we find ourselves hovering around 12th come Christmas!), and it's a shame, as teams like Watford get more out of their originally less-fancied players.

 

Nice work from the Head of the Arse Statistic Dept.
Let's hope for the first in 33 years then!

 

It's all well and good looking at statistics. Koeman's sample includes every single training session that Gaston has attended.

I'm afraid the quoted stretch of statistics to downplay Tadic is laughable. Why would anyone double discount a missed penalty? He's not been credited for it (it didn't go in) yet in these statistics, it's been taken away again. What? Seriously? Why not take a goal off him for the one he missed against Villa, or any arbitrary miss chosen at random? Have all the sitters missed by all the players (including Gastón) been double discounted? Why not? Is a penalty miss worse than missing a tap in from five feet? Even if not, on what basis does a player get punished? Who decides? Also, I know the Sunderland game spoils the desperate attempt to worsen Tadic's statistics but it did happen and Tadic did assist, so it's pretty arbitrary to just dismiss it as irrelevant and thus worthy of being taken out of his numbers (along with the utterly arbitrary double punishment for missing a penalty, never forget). Would the same have been done if it was Gastón's stats that would have been affected? I think we know the answer. It might be worth adding a few to Gastón where he did a cross that should have been converted. That would help it look like Koeman's got an agenda.

BTW, it hasn't just been Koeman who hasn't played him. So these stats don't just reflect on Ronald but also on Poch, who didn't really kill himself to give Gaston game time. The other people who are blind to these stats include the whole management team that chose to send him to Hull.

By the way, I can't be bothered to look but I didn't notice anyone shouting when he was sent off to Hull for a season.

This isn't statistics used to clarify, it's statistics manipulated to advance a theory.

Vin

 

I'm sure there is a stat that tells chances created, negating the pointless issue if the beneficiary converted said chance.

That way we can see who really is the King of Assists and who is the Wooden Spoon of not setting them up between a player who left us ages ago and isn't coming back, a player who is most certainly leaving within 6 months and a player who deserves our support as he is currently playing for us and rarely lacks effort but more lacks better players around him.

That may help the debate!

The other point is that didn't Lallana play mainly left/right wing whereas Gaston would have more time in the middle with a lack of defensive ability/requirement?

Funny enough I was reading last month the interesting point about stats is that apparently 67.39% of them are made up...

 

Ooooo also, out of some misguided interest, how did Gaston get on with goals and assists when he played loads at Hull?

 

In search of some reliable stats, I found this from Squawka's analysis of his time at Hull:

"His poor form in England continued with the Tigers as he could not prevent them from being relegated on the final day of the season following a goalless draw with Manchester United.

He’s played 22 times in the Premier League this season and was nowhere to be seen in their final four games of the campaign.

Gaston scored one goal and created 23 chances, which makes him fifth most creative player at the KC Stadium (my emphasis). Just two of those were assists though as the attacking midfielder failed to reignite the form he showed during his final season in Serie A with Bologna."


Read more at http://www.squawka.com/news/reports...ter-poor-hull-loan/384203#Axq13jG04qm6R9Cb.99

"Fifth most creative player at Hull" are not words that fill me with confidence that he might be the Saviour, to be honest.

Vin

 

If you play anywhere in the three behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1 you are expected to have attacking end product.

Hull are a **** side. But he got 1 goal, 2 assists in 986 mins. Lallana is on 2 assists in 890 minutes this season in the league, no goals. Ramirez has been better for Saints. But I did already do stats for Hull/Saints combined and Saints only for Ramirez. Hull in fairness to Ramirez are much more defensive than Saints (and Liverpool).

Never at any point did I suggest stats are the be all and end all.****************************************************************^**********************************************Still, no one can deny direct end product is extremely important for an attacker. Good luck to any team trying to score goals and trying to win games with an attack that has no (or poor) end product.

By the way. Lallana is an excellent head to head comparison for Ramirez due to the fact Lallana was massively over rated here. He is being absolutely slaughtered by Liverpool fans.

 

Let's not use someone's misuse of statistics to impugn the use of quantifiable measure themselves.

Statistics don't tell you the whole story. Especially over small sample sizes. But over the course of a season, or several seasons things do tend to even out. You will play some good teams and bad teams. You'll score a few lucky goals and miss some sitters.

If you look at Tadic's WhoScored profile you will see he's a pretty good player overall. And good in just the areas you would expect (and weak in the ones you'd expect as well).

The problem with using stats to talk about Harrison Reed is his sample size is both small and biased. The problem with using stats to pump up Ramirez is that you are fixating on goals/goal creation while ignoring the fact that Steven Davis also does many things well.

Again, if you look at their respective WhoScored pages, you probably won't find too much to argue with. Ramirez is much better at scoring than Davis. Ramirez is much better at making the key pass than Davis. But Ramirez is much worse at holding possession and about giving balls away.

I think most of us would agree with that. Ramirez has something special about him, but he can be a bit of a luxury player who can kill you with cheap giveaways. Davis is a blue collar, hard-working, box-to-box type who keeps things ticking but is not the guy you want to break down a stubborn defense.

 

November 2015:

November 2015:

July 2015:

I said I couldn't be bothered to find out what you'd said in the past about him but I changed my mind. He wasn't the messiah in November but now he is...

Vin

 

"Borderline ******ed"? What a charming phrase.

Vin

 

Personally I'd much prefer us to play Ramirez than Davis in any of the three positions in front of the DMs, and behind the centre forward, in a 4-2-3-1. I'd much prefer us to be playing two proper DM's too (Wanyama, Reed/Romeu) if we insist on 4-2-3-1.

Just look at the team Palace put out against us recently. Wickham, Bolasie, Zaha and Puncheon all started. They played a small ball winner in McArthur (he's only 168cm tall) and Cabaye! In contrast we had five defenders on the park, Romeu, Wanyama and Davis from the start. Negative to say the least.

We're obsessed with playing Wanyama, Clasie/Romeu and Davis all at the same time in a 4-2-3-1 system. Then we have the likes of Leicester and Watford that have done well all season with 4-4-2.

Davis can be a decent player at AMC or on the right, but only when he's on the very top of his game..because his end product is practically non existent.. Ramirez can play poorly and still might come up with a goal or assist. In reality football is about goals and I don't think many people ever look at the oppositions three behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1 and particularly care whether they have a hard-working player like Davis or not. They worry more if their opponent has goal-threats, pace and creators at centre forward and the three behind him, good DM's, good defence and a good keeper.

 

Just a very naughty boy?

 

There's a journalist called Kevin Pullein who writes about football for the Racing Post. His interpretation of stats borders on genius, and he proves the efficacy of his analyses by consistently making money betting on football. He is quite simply brilliant at spotting and exploiting trends through close scrutiny of stats. But he's never written a single sentence, that I'm aware of, that would suggest he took any pleasure in the simple beauty of a well worked build up or a perfectly struck 20 yard volley. Not much joy there, in other words. No room for instinct, art or the unquantifiable.

 

The point was that in the eyes of Koeman it appeared he wasn't good enough to get on the bench in November considering the amount of players he had bought in the Summer. If you hadn't noticed I'm not the actual manager. I was thinking that the fact we were neither using him or selling him was stupid. At this stage Ramirez needs to get chances. Beginning of the season when Ramirez was out the equation I wasn't banging on about it because we'd just bought new players..it was unrealistic to expect him to get chances ahead of new signings..When you discuss a team and the selection sometimes you need to include the managers thinking into it and the manager's recent signings. If you haven't noticed things have changed, more time has gone by and our form is terrible. Perhaps Koeman might be tempted at this stage and we're playing awfully, so there's really no harm banging on about it.

And yes Ramirez and Lallana are maybe about the same for me, but only overall. Ramirez has statistically better end product, but they're about the same for me due to the fact Lallana is more versatile. In AMC for example I'd always play Ramirez over Lallana. Out wide I'd play Lallana over Ramirez. Same for at CM in a 4-3-3. But that's mainly because I've never really seen Ramirez play there or on the left, he looks reasonable on the right for example. Both of them have decent defensive contribution (but very different defensive contribution) in the three behind the striker.

I never made a comment at any stage that I think Ramirez was better, I was showing their stats. I've always said that Lallana over rated and Ramirez should have had more chances, that was it.

 

Lallana had far more defensive duties so isn't a direct comparison.

I appreciate your feedback and stats and think they're about the same level in many areas but think Gaston has more potential.

To be honest, and some may agree or not, the point is somewhat redundant although I wouldn't be surprised if he did play more now.

Also think Harrison Reed may start getting more involved

l