Off Topic Political Debate

You misunderstand the process. Nobody dies to achieve this - it is achieved through restricting births.
I love statistics - but as the famous quote goes - "there are lies, damned lies and statistics". I can prove just about anything with statistics - I know you do not like personal records but I got a First in each of my Stats papers.
You keep overlooking the fact that I have suggested adding population control to your armoury - do it as well as educate, cut CO2 etc etc. It is not population control INSTEAD of any other measure but AS WELL AS - if you like.
You also help my argument - if China and your 40 countries including some of my top 12 are already stable or declining then the argument to persuade a reduction would be easier surely. Bring forward your mid century target - that's all - or should we wait till mid century for the rest of your measures too.
I do not understand why your massive negativity to population reduction - Greens should argue for it

 

In a sense we are arguing for it already because, as I said in my last text, education is the key - so if I support the right of girls to an education, and that on a Worldwide basis, then this process alone cuts down the number of births. Other than that I do not see how we (meaning the German or English Green parties) can influence this without a form of Worldwide government - which, bearing in mind the problems which many on here have with surrendering sovereignty to the EU. is hardly likely.

 

I am not expecting the Greens to actually achieve anything. I am just saying that I am surprised it is not a core feature of their policy and not as a possible by product of education. If you believe we are using to many resources then I would expect something that would massively cut that should be a key policy. If all Green parties everywhere advocated restricting tax allowances to baby guzzling families as they try to influence gas guzzling cars then their message might carry.
Still I think we have done this to death now and are going round in circles. As and when I see Green Parties advocating population reduction I will believe they are serious about the planet but not until then.

 

Last point here Leo. The German Green Party writes its manifesto for Germany - a country which doesn't have a population problem. The English write theirs for England and so on.........We are not writing World manifestoes. If you look around the various Green Parties of Europe then you will see many similarities but also many differences. As a last point here, a baby is not necessarily a Co2 producing monster at the moment he is born.....he becomes it through his socialization.

 

I mistakenly believed that the Green Party transcended national guidelines. Global pollution is just that - if each country takes a narrow view of what it's own problems are then many worldwide will be ignored. In my ideal scenario EVERY country reduces its population over two generations to one child bearing female for every four now. It is not for one country to say - we are all right. All have contributed to global population pollution.
Still you are right - my last point too.

 

Despite a huge amount of TV time, the threat of the extreme right FN has been seen off, as the extreme left was seen off last week. Marine le Penn and her niece were being proposed as possible winners today in two regions, but they failed completely. I believe that the French people are not so very different to the English, and with the moderate Conservatism of Sarkozy we can see that far left or right are not wanted. The regions were altered by Hollande to try and gain some advantage, but at the same time he removed the closeness of government to the people. Under proposals from the last administration I would have had a vote today, but that chance was removed when the current government was installed. If the vote for President was held tomorrow it would not be a FN winner or a Socialist, but a left wing Conservative.

 

Interesting to follow the results here in Languedoc/Roussillon/Midi Pyrenees, Frenchie. FN were beaten into second place but they did poll 33% of the votes and it seemed that they performed most strongly in the coastal regions. We spent yesterday using the extensive tram system here to explore the city suburbs and, like in Paris, you are instantly struck by the contrast with the city centre. Areas like Mosson, originally developed to house those forced to leave Algeria, have a very different feel and ethnic mix from the obviously prosperous old town. That and the very evident police and military presence in the centre makes you think a bit about what lies ahead. Do you feel today's results will be viewed positivEly?

 

We should remember these are exit poll results, but in the vast majority of cases they will be correct. Overall in the country the FN are third, quite a long way behind the Republicans. My view, which is from the outside as my view of UK politics is these days, is that the French realized very soon after he was elected, Hollande was not the man to run the country. When the Labour party had their leadership election, members were looking for someone different to lead them, and in many ways people here were looking for a change from the old guard and turned to the right. The FN received loads of airtime before the election as they appeared to be on the up, but tonight Marine le Penn has been blaming the socialist media for her failure. Seems as though the press and TV can get the blame which ever side of the political spectrum you are on, or which country you are in. There are huge differences on the outskirts of the major cities because the immigrants have been put there in very poor ghettos. It creates many problems when you put 5,000 people in high rise accommodation in one area, and because of their postcode they cannot even get an interview for a job. I believe that the French, who like the English are quite moderate, are happy to see the FN disposed of for the time being, but until there is a new President the country will still flirt with change, even if it is just for change sake.

 

Thanks, Frenchie. I know it's anecdotal but seeing individual French people showing great kindness and generosity to the not uncommon street beggars you see here seems at odds with the regional/national policy of putting immigrnat populations into out of town high rise estates. That said, I can think of more than a few towns in England where the same end result has happened, though it doesn't look quite as planned.

 

That to my mind is where the problem lies. Put people together on purpose, or let them quite naturally join together in areas of a town. Not sure at all that you can prevent the latter, but maybe smaller areas than currently used might help.
On the kindness of people here, it is something that attracts me to the country. The food banks are really under huge pressure to provide meals in ever increasing numbers. Last year we were asked to fill a carrier bag in the supermarkets twice in the year with essential dried foods. This year as the unemployment figures continue to grow we have been asked four times, yet people just rise to the need and contribute. There are many people here who drop through the net of help as in the UK, but can a government of any shade be expected to pick up every single person down on their luck, self induced or otherwise? There will always be some who receive the best help from the charities who are not tied to the same set of rules.

 

Hard to see that a policy of designated areas for any identifiable group is good policy and I absolutely agree that while national policies should provide for the most vulnerable there are always some who slip through the net. In some places there feel to be more than there should be! I am, as I said, touched by the acts of kindness I've witnessed here...several times towards people whose manner and appearance would tempt a lot of us to steer clear of them.

 

The FN achieved nearly 30% of the votes and is stronger than ever. The effect will be for Sarko to position his party further to the right to win some of this considerable support.

I've not heard anyone say yet the French system should change to PR to reflect the views of the electorate?

 

You've just outlined why I would never support the Green movement! On the one hand you're saying we have global problem with climate that humanity must address and on the other you're saying each country has its own agenda as they are so diverse. It's all hogwash and the carbon lie is so far from the truth and such a blatant political tool to suppress the third world I'm really surprised by the number of people who are buying in to it then I guess the majority of the human race does behave like sheep and needs something to believe by faith rather than evidence hence Green being the new Catholic church in my opinion, a self interested self propogating instrument of fear.

 

Suppress the third world? You're an ardent capitalist? I thought that was what got you out of bed in the morning.

 

So you're happy that the EU is full of racists? Just because it suits your weird agenda?

 

I'm a capitalist because and part of that is because I do not believe in suppression of peoples which I see as the doctrine of the communist world. It's a misconception that capitalists do not believe in trying to make everybodys lives better...

 

The '3rd world' wouldn't exist if we lived on a planet where selfish people weren't in control. As a species we've created the artificial concept of wealth and the people that wrote the rulebook are surprisingly doing quite well, whereas the others aren't.

As for causing global misery, I think greed takes precedence over changing energy generation methods...

Also, I very much recommend this documentary, all fact based, over the impact the largest oil companies have had on shaping geopolitics in the last century

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3442702/

 

What I explained Aberdeen was the concept of think globally but act locally - the German Green Party cannot have a direct influence on what happens in Britain. We will only move from this stage when we start having 'European' or 'World' parties. Why do you consider this a weakness ? Can the Conservative Party write their manifesto for German voters ? As an environmentalist my first responsibility is to improve my own carbon balance, and then to help to improve that of my own locality, then my own region, then country and then look to support global solutions in the best way I can.......but if I start with the global solutions then my possibility of influence is greatly reduced.

 

The third world exists because it was discovered, old world new world third world...It's not selfish people in control its people with the ability, have you never met any of these people that seem to have a different level of, well I don't know what it is but it's an ability to make people want to serve or even die for the greater good? Let the "Green" movement continue on its quest for power through attempting to destroy capitalism, it will never happen as the human race does not crave poverty and ill health but heat, food and leisure time which are delivered by capitalism not intellectual idealism... I prefer experience to watching "fact based" documentaries as I'm from the generation not of virtual reality and gaming but living breathing and experiencing. Being actively involved in the oil and energy business with direct experience of the majors and some NOCs I dismiss all pro and anti hydrocarbon "fact based" TV as the comical entertainment that it is....

 

That's not why it's called the third world, but nevermind...

You're not an idiot so I refuse to believe that you honestly think that the most richest/powerful people on this planet have the wellbeing of mankind as their main priority. If so there has been unbelievably little evidence for it so far...

Consumerism, individualism and greed have wrecked this planet, ruined the lives of millions and millions of people throughout human history and will continue to do so unless the system is tweaked. People always claim that it's in man's nature to act in certain ways, but as a society we should have evolved beyond that.

I take real objection to this part

Does capitalism produce goods/services? I thought it was people. Changing the way wealth is redistributed would not stop people from working, on the contrary, it would greatly increase jobs as there would be more money in the system. Stopping companies from profiting from destroying the planet would not break the global economy either, just make a few rich people (made rich by selling off the quality of life of future generations) poor again.

The documentary I suggested was a brief history of the actions of some of the largest oil companies in Iraq, Libya, Nigeria and a few other oil producing nations, their links with local militias and their actions towards the locals. It's definitely worth a watch. As far as I know no one has been killed over wind turbines...

Anyways, no point in dragging this on, we're never going to agree. One thing I'm quite surprised by is why you dislike Donald Trump so much? When you listed your ideal policies the other day they were pretty much identical to his...