Off Topic Political Debate

So then you get back to the same system that exists now, special cases pleading their reasons why they should have more. Who decides that they should receive more? The more people who rely on governments to provide a living, the greater chance for government to buy their votes.

 

The terms Left and Right are used differently in different countries and have meant different things throughout history. Even within a lifetime they can change - you only have to think of the 50s and 60s when the idea of a mixed economy was more or less standard and when Keynesianism was the dominant economic theory of the age. Most of the parties then were left of what they are now and since then the 'middle' of British politics has moved decisively to the right. Yet the 50s and 60s were ages of unparalleled growth compared to what came later. There are some parties or movements today which you cannot place on the left or on the right which is why you have working class supporters of the BNP etc. who also describe themselves as anti capitalist, also environmentalism is neither left nor right - a poisoned fish in a river is not concerned whether the poison came from a workers cooperative or a global player (although it is more likely to have come from the latter).

 

I would have thought that the 50s and 60s showed so much growth because it came from a very low base as countries rebuilt after WWII.

 

The 50s and 60s were not times of good growth - Labour called the 50s 13 wasted years under the Tories and then with strikes, devaluation and everything Wilson failed in the 60s. The 70s were pretty rubbish too.
Frankly I am not interested for discussion on this thread with foreign ideas of left and right. I know little about them and they matter less. Most people in the UK understand left right terminology and even if the centre point moves the wings remain. This is not really an ideological discussion - the terms left and right have no precise definition and you can always find confusion - but ask the man in the street whether Labour is left or right and the same for the Conservatives and I believe you will get a fairly unanimous response. So if it passes the test of common understanding rather than intellectual Hegelian or other philosophy I am happy to go with it.
Although your poisoned fish may not be left or right I observe more concern amongst peole who consider themselves left wing - I am not surprised as in my experience people on the left are just more caring of people and animals in need

 

Can we all agree that Donald Trump is an ignorant, vile excuse for a human being with disgusting views on just about everything that matters?

 

Yes.

 

Leo, in my lifetime the centre of British politics has shifted so far that what is now considered as being far left was not considered as being so in the 50s and 60s. I do not believe that there is a standard, static, view of what left and right mean in contemporary Britain - I am British, and I do not consider Labour as being a left wing party (and my view is every bit as valid as any other Briton - and I am not alone in that belief). However what is particularly difficult is the expression 'far right', where does it come from ? And how did it come to mean anything other than neo liberalism ? I have the feeling that the ideas of left and right may mean different things depending on ones age ie. older lefties are more likely to be 'economically' left ie. they believe in state ownership, welfare state etc. whereas the younger left are more likely to be 'socially' left ie. support for gay marriage, open borders, multi culti etc. sometimes the 2 can work together but not always. Strange that Corbyn, despite his age, appears to have more support from younger Labour members.

 

Because of the strange voting system we have in France, the Socialists are being told by the Prime Minister to vote for the Conservatives where they have a better chance of keeping the National Front out. Although I agree with the sentiments, I cannot imagine Corbyn telling his members to vote for the Tories to keep UKIP out.
As I can watch both French TV and the UK channels I do get to see how the two systems of government work and find that when I see the extreme left, they do call themselves that, refusing to support a left wing government, but supporting the right wing, I wonder how much principles exist amidst politicians and how much the hunger for power overtakes those things they say they believe in. At least a lot of Labour MPs have stuck to their principles publicly and refused to support Corbyn.

 

Sad to say i think he will win

 

Yes of course ... so i think it is an interesting idea though.... as we will always it seems get people who choose to fake from the welfare system....( but remember we always seems to get those who seek to cheat the tax system etc)

 

Interesting this.

i have heard a continual theme on this thread how the Toriesa are better with the economy. Werent they in power at some stage between 1950 -1980?

I am rather surprised that "frankly I am not interested for discussion on this thread with foreign ideas of left and right" ... I think such conversations are pertinent in our modern global society.

Similarly for the reasons described elsewhere by myself I myself don't sit with populist views.

Is it not possible to have the discussion without seeking to pigeon hole people on this thread? Where you yourself dont see yourself as left or right?? and me too.... but you seem to want to call me Left?

Anyway good day one and all...

 

Correct Yorkie - the Tories were in power from 1951 to 1964 when growth was reasonable and there was no economic crisis. The Profumo scandal - not economic issues - led to Labour coming to power with Wilson's "white heat of technology" which failed to materialise and we suffered an economic crisis leading to a massive devaluation of the pound and Labour fell. Heath's government in the 70s was rubbish (nobody ever said the Tories always get it right - only that Labour always seem to get it wrong) Heath was not helped as the Unions at this time were massive and attacked everything the government did - strikes were common and ultimately it led to Thatcher coming to power to resolve the Union issue - which she did and Britain has never since been ruled by Unions.
Why are you surprised at what interests me and does not Yorkie - you are not interested in the left right argument at all - for me it is only valid in a UK context and it is only Cologne who keeps telling us what the rest of the world thinks and what was said in the 19th century. Sorry to disappoint you but I feel trying to understand left right in today's UK context occupies my brain cell. If I can converse with people who have the same understanding in today's UK on left right then I am not worried that if I spoke to an Argentinian he may view it differently. If you enjoy the pertinent conversation in our modern global society then good for you - now try to get a consensus on its meaning and forgive me if I sit that one out.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is ........ I do not pigeon hole YOU - but observe (am I not allowed observation in your censorial world?) that all your arguments emanate from the left so are you surprised if that is how you are seen. I am not saying that I see you as Left and nothing else - you seem multi-faceted - but you are overly sensitive to the left right terminology in my humble view. If it makes you feel better I will try not to see your left wing views as left any more and will try to avoid commenting on it. You are free to call me Left, Right, Middle or just wrong if you care to.
Just about every post you make concerning me has undertones of criticism of how I think and what I say and what I am supposed to be interested in - that is fine as it is clearly how you see things but forgive me if I try to explain how I too see things. Are you correct and I am wrong? Live and let live - if some of us find left right definitions helpful allow us that little bit of freedom please. I am no longer at school being told what to think.

 

Leo, I know that this reply is not directed to me but I appear to be included in it. Please look again at my text 3327 I am not only interested in international or historical views on 'left' and 'right' because all of those exist in contemporary Britain. Also the terms may mean different things to different generations - also the type of 'left wing' ideas found in some circles in London may not be appropriate for the North East of England or Glasgow. Things are not as static as you presume and there is no accepted definition of 'left' and 'right' which is valid for every Englishman. You would call the Green Party 'left' but would they use this description themselves ? Are all Ukip voters 'on the right' ? Also do not try to turn Britain into an island in more ways than it is already - of course both the left and the right are connected to their European counterparts - and sit and work with them in the European Parliament. Labour sits in the same block as the German SDP, the Greens sit together with their European counterparts and with the separatist parties (SNP, Vlaams Bok. etc.) we in the German Green Party have many points of contact with the English Greens (partner constituency parties etc.) and the same is true for Labour and the Tories. And if you want to be really alarmed then look at some of the connections between the far right in Europe.

 

I was just trying to respond to Yorkie who seems to think I have to be interested in the debate on left versus right. I am not. To me it is fruitless - nobody will ever agree what is left or what is right. I know that you cannot define it. It is multi-shaped, it is ever changing and so on and so on. However I had a simple point. I reckon most people and the media would describe UK Labour as left and UK Conservatives as Right. I would bet that you could go on the street and get a pretty high consensus on that. Yes - when it comes to the Greens, UKIP, BNP etc etc it gets confusing but all of us have a view on what left right means - nobody calls the Tories left wing do they? I reckon that by using left right as a shortcut you get fairly good understanding from Joe Public. We may all be wrong and our ideas may only overlap each other but without getting technical or going into the finer points for everyday use it is a working model
For my pains part of my degree was politics so do not imagine that I presume politics is static or that there is a standard definition. I am only saying that you can go to the pub and have a discussion and use the terms left and right without getting into this fruitless debate that keeps coming up on here.

 

What happens in Britain is that the media decides what is left or hard left and then this helps to form the opinions of the population. The media has therefore classified Corbyn as 'hard' or 'extreme' left because it is in their interests to do so. The fact that many of Corbyn's policies are practised already by many 'centrist' European governments never gets a mention. You say 'ask the people in the pub' what is 'left' and what is 'right' ok. but then do the same in a pub in Watford and then in Liverpool or Glasgow and the answer may be different. It also may be different according to age group. For many people in Labours heartlands, and for the poorest 30% or so of the population, Labour has not been a left wing party for many years - and they are still not certain that it has become so now. Similarly the Conservative Party has many strands, from the neo liberalist worshippers of Hayek and Thatcher, to the arch conservative ex Colonels of England who just dislike everything vaguely continental, through to the older style (rather more socially conscious) as represented by Kenneth Clarke or Heseltine. I would not describe all of them as being equally on the right - in fact they only stay together as one party because of Labour (the same is true the other way around).

 

I have lived in Wales, a brother is in Scotland and I have friends all around the country and somehow we occasionally talk politics and have never got confused on the terms left and right. Must be lucky. Don't think you can blame views of Corbyn on the media. That is a frequently abused assertion on many political issues and is about as accurate as describing benefits claimants as scroungers. Many of his MPs and presumably the voters and 40% of the party members who did not vote for him regards him as more left than his predecessors. I regard the constant excuse that the media indoctrinates the public as both insulting and incorrect. We are not all sheep. Can you point to one person who describes Corbyn as moving the party to the right? He may not be left enough for many but that is a different issue.

 

I think the main issue I have with the media and JC is the number of outright lies they have told about, things which are easily proven as lies. This has to be a right wing influence on the media!

 

Yes, I signed the petition and glad to see rgu have stripped him of his degree and scotland stripped him of his honorary scott status.... he's an ignorant dick...

 

I really can't believe he has any supporter across the whole spectrum left to right!

 

Really a waste of time arguing pedantics. In the context of left right use here we all know what each other mean and whether we are correct in absolute terms matters not a jot.