Off Topic Political Debate

Looks like Corbyn passed his first real test in front of the electorate. Never underestimate the enemy.... Having said that given choice of UKIP or Labour I'd put 5 votes in the labour box!!!! Dave, there's a massive difference between Russias bombing campaign and our removal of a false border restricting our operations. Russia are using dumb and cluster munitions whereas our very limited bombing efforts are based on using close support and tactical smaert weapons against intelligence based targets. Very different outomes both in the field and minds.

 

The other main difference is that the Russians are doing it in cooperation with the Assad regime - a course which has more chances of success and looks less like interference from outside.

 

I recommend working with the Assad regime as well, in fact you saw my solution was to let the russians do the air work though if we all worked together there would be better targeting and less use of blanket bombing. Leos solution was the right one. Removing the border restriction is logical though as there are instances when our forces are closer to provide air support than others and not being able to do so is crazy. The press focus and mis represetation of this is really bad. We have been bombing in Iraq for 14 months, we've been using drones in Syria, the border is not a real border until it is re established as such by Syrian forces. My objection to use of our aircraft is purely a financial one having said that it should help my Bae stock.Leos solution is the one that works and in all this ther must be a new Kurdish state which is going to upset Turkey considerably, there will never be peace!!!

 

The Labour Party is unelectable in its present state, the civil war within publicly burst open this week. The tension and problems will only intensify until one side ejects the other from the party.

Whilst the bickering and backstabbing goes on they are not fulfilling their role as an effective opposition party.

I cannot see anything for you to celebrate, in fact the longer the infiltrators are in charge the more damage is being done.

 

Unfortunately not necessarily the case! You can't rely on the electorate to make the right decisions all the time, many of the electorate fail what I would call an ability to make intelligent decision criteria. My case in point comes up on Sunday in Venezuela where despite 16 years of chaos the uneducated saint worshiping frankly brain dead followers of Maduro will still vote for his party having allowed themselves to become completely dependent on handouts. The same is true in many areas in society here where all people are looking for is attractive promises witout any comprehension of whats needed from society to deliver them and without the will to work hard for their desires.

 

As a Tory it should be me celebrating, unfortunately it will be sorted way before the next election!!!!

 

Not sure that Daesh will draw a fine distinction between Russia's nasty bombs and our sweet rosy ones.

Have the good grace to admit that Labour did well yesterday - where are your predictions from earlier in the week?

 

62% doesn't look unelectable to me. It just shows that the attempts to brand Corbyn as a poisoned trade mark are failing.

 

Not really. History has shown that by election results cannot be used as any indicator. Any party with a chance of winning can put tons of resources there, local factors tend to be very important (the Labour strategy there was to ignore Corbyn and go for local issues) and things like the popularity of the Syria bombing decision the same day will have had an effect. All it says is that the forecast of a Labour collapse was incorrect

 

Nobody is doing more damage to Corbyn than the man himself. He is way out of his depth, the only group he is helping at the moment is the government.

 

Daesh will not know the difference as both will kill them. Our smart ones though will kill fewer if any civilians.... That's the big difference.

 

I call last nights result a wake up call to us in the conservative party. It means we haven't reached the entire electorate by a long shot. It shows there is a good support for labour still in its heartlands and that UKIP position as an extreme party of protest still exists. For strategy it means we continue to focus on holds and marginals where labour support is far more likely to collapse (from the middle ground). Not worth looking for any positives from the result there aren't any.

 

The impact of the media's interpretation of Corbyn's actions so far is shocking...

I thought posters on here, as an educated bunch (apart from you-know-who), would be able to see through it all.

Last night was proof that Corbyn's leadership of the party isn't condemning them to 3rd place behind UKIP, his views on intervention in Syria are widely supported (from posts on the internet/people I've spoken to), his policies aren't 'far-left' as most people want some renationalisation + higher taxes on corporations/the super-rich, rent caps are a must in London and the South-East if anyone under the age of 50 ever plans on working there and Trident is a huge waste of money.

He's being demonised by the press because he's threatening the little Tory/right wing cabal that's governed this country for decades, thus upsetting some powerful people. He may have messed up a few public appearances, but far worse has come from our current PM and Chancellor...

I can understand that people like superhorns, who have made their money and now live in their own houses, bought during the Tory/Tory-lite years of plenty, have no ****ing idea what it's like starting in the workplace nowadays. You can tell what kind of person he is.

 

Last nights result in Oldham had very little to do with Corbyn's leadership of the LP. That is a solid Labour seat and the debate over whether to start bombing IS in Syria or Corbyn's state socialist policies, would have made no difference.
Considering JC's long held view that you should sit down with terrorist organisations as he has done in N. Ireland and in Egypt, I wonder when he will be announcing a visit to Iraq/Syria to sit down with IS and discuss their demands?

Trying to dumb down Corbyn's history and smartening him up with a better suit and trimming his beard, does not distract the observer from understanding his real political ethos of state control in a Socialist State - after all he did belive that Venezula was the perfect place. As the saying goes "you can't polish a turd"

 

If Labour had been demolished in Oldham you would have readily sprung on the bandwagon by saying that it was a negative indictment of his leadership - like many others on here. That was not however the case - the electorate had an opportunity to register their dissatisfaction with the present leadership of the party and did not do it - in fact their vote rose by 7% (when was the last time a Labour vote did that under any circumstances ?). The idea that if Labour lost it would have been 'because of Corbyn' whereas they won 'because of local factors' is typical for many football fans - we know it particularly from Leeds.

 

In almost every by election it's the opposition party (not in power in Westminster) that fares best not looked it up but I would guess 99% of the mid term by elections follow this pattern so this is totally normal and I wouldn't read much into it. It is a wake up that in labour strongholds its still a lost cause to the conservative party which means we're either a) not getting the message across effectively or b) are not meeting these communities needs. Need to look into it to see what can be done to understand and provide better solutions for these people.

 

I agree with a lot of what Toby says. I don't think Corbyn is as extreme as he is being painted and to be honest as someone who sits in the middle ground (even if shockingly I do own my own house) quite a few of his policies appeal to the left side of my nature -not least anti-war and anti-Trident. However I part company when there is an attempt to blame all the anti-Corbyn views on the media. The media follow public opinion as well as trying to lead / manipulate it. I have seen enough comments from Labour supporters and MPs (who themselves are now demonized by radical elements of their own party - how dare they vote by conscience on a free vote?) to tell me Corbyn has a lot of work to do and a lot to learn about leadership rather than opposition / rebellion.

Agree with Cologne that had Oldham been taken by UKIP Corbyn would have taken the blame - rightly so as but what other factor could have overturned a 15,000 majority within 6 months? As it is they marginalised him - he did not even visit Oldham (due to other commitments which seems to be becoming a theme of his) so can hardly expect credit. I credit Oldham voters for not falling for the UKIP line.

 

I'm not really presuming anything from this result Leo.....though it was nice to prove the experts (and SH. wrong......he seems a little quiet today!). However, as you say, turnouts are lower at by elections 40% as against 59% in May - and the lower a turnout becomes the more unpredictable the result becomes. One day only one person is going to vote and the monster raving loonies will be in Westminster ! (although that couldn't be much worse than what we have now)

 

I think Labour voters, like myself, have always tried to stop the Tories getting into power, even if it meant voting for people that don't really represent what we believe in.

I don't believe in everything Corbyn says, that's not how politics work, but one thing I'm 100% certain of is that he actually wants to help people.

Even the Guardian are fighting to get him replaced by a Tory-lite blairite, the media do really have it in for him...

 

I've just come back from a long walk and coffee in Ashridge although I had given my views earlier. If you feel confident about Corbyn and his cronies then good luck. The strife within the LP has just started so plenty of opportunity to discuss further.