Off Topic Political Debate

Re. The Monarchy as against the left/right spectrum, was Cromwell on the left ? Or were the republicans in the USA on the left when they severed their connection to the British crown - not sure about Cromwell but he was the personalized hero of Oswald Moseley. Which brings us onto the other theme that monarchies have also failed to survive Fascist dictatorships eg. Mussolini. I think that the origins of the expressions left and right stem from the seating arrangements in the French post revolutionary government, where the cheapest seats were on the left. However in any real sense the expression hard left refers to collective ownership of the means of production (though retaining private possessions), and to the devolution of political power downwards.
Even orthodox Marxist theories see the erosion of the state as the end goal of socialism - though in places like the USSR exactly the reverse happened. There is a difference between the pre war left and the post war/post multi culti variant. Most Marxists were racists (just like other pre war people). Read up on Friedrich Engels if you have time.....where he speaks of those races which are not capable of forming an industrial proletariat....apparently they will rot on the dung heap of history. There are too many connections between what occurs in Engels' writings and what occurs in Mein Kampf. After the war socialism was forced to distance itself from the National Socialism of Hitler and then to adapt itself to multi culti society (which Marx says nothing about).
The problem is that there were parallels between the Marxist adaptation of the social Darwinist idea that class conflict was the moving force of history and the Nazi view that race conflict was the motor. Both were group ideologies and could easily overlap. Hitler thought that his party was placed on the left, and was the 'genuine' socialism as opposed to Bolshevism. In more modern times we still have a problem with defining the 'far right', more so than we do with the left. It is perfectly possible to be economically left in every sense but still be a racist - I absolutely hate racism, but not because I am on the left. But even I have problems when the left wing package includes things like'legalization of cannabis`or single sex marriages (and adoptions) - things which, to my mind, have nothing to do with the left-right spectrum, and I confess to being not interested in the first and against the latter (sorry Elton). For me far right is the most difficult catagory - logically it should mean Laissez Faire, Neo Liberal, free market capitalism and not groups like the BNP or NF or EDL which take their supporters primarily from the working classes - for me these groups are unplaceable and we call them far right out of convenience.

 

I did not say that monarchies had been overthrown exclusively on the left. Greece and Spain for example are complicated areas. Right wing fascism does seem to fall into the anti monarchist sector. However the USA was a war of independence and they simply chose a republic as there was no precedent for a monarchy so it is entirely different. 1649 was not an era when the proletariat even existed so let's discount Cromwell. By and large I suspect if you poll people who describe themselves as on the left or right you would find a much higher degree of republicanism on the left. The "Establishment" which tends to be pro monarchy is also generally considered more right than left wing.

I have read all I ever want to thank you on Marx, Engels, Nietzsche and the rest during my degree studies in politics. However once you go back a hundred years or more you are entering territory that is simply alien to modern life. People genuinely believed that black people were sub human - even some so called enlightened people of that time - we forgive them if at all only for their ignorance.

What I like about this thread Cologne that some consider toxic is that when we actually talk with each other there is so much that is interesting - I know some who only observe and do not post also find it fascinating. I can rise above the occasional WUM post - I think we can count the WUM(s) on here on the fingers of one finger.

Your comments on legalisation of cannabis and gay marriage made me think. You see I favour both and had not considered they appeared on the left right spectrum - but you are right - they do. Colonel Right wing "I died in the War for you" can almost certainly be guessed to be right wing and opposed to both. Student Left wing "all property is theft" is probably in favour. And now I have descended into awful stereotyping.

 

Sorry Leo but Colonel ''I died in the war for you'' would surely be a ghost....are they political ? Also, he is countered by Corporal Left Wing's ''We went away and fought the middle classes battles for them''. I'm actually not against gay marriage as such (although I am not a fan of any form of marriage really) but I do not believe they should be able to adopt children - because in this case a third (and vulnerable) person is involved and there is not enough evidence yet on how this affects them.

I know that going back a hundred years or so is probably not helpfull, although the origins of the expressions come out of this era. However, ideas of left and right are also seen in different ways in different countries today, just one example.....many people on the right in Britain have been in favour of a return of national service yet in other countries this is supported by the left (because it keeps the army representative of the people). I do not think that eg. the eco socialists in South America are concerned with themes like gay marriage etc. Also, you can further divide the left into the Atheist left of Marxism and the much older forms of socialism or communalism which come from religious sources - how many of the original Labour party members in 1900 came from a religious background ? The Fabian Society is probably the oldest Labour institution.

 

Now - a ghost is of course a spirit - which has to be right wing as if it were left wing it would be quaffing bitter

I expect you are correct and what constitutes left and right wings may differ between countries. I will confine myself to thinking about what I see around me here in the UK

 

It could also be Leo that the Left wing scene in eg. London is also different from the same thing in Barnsley or Rotherham, with different priorities. I haven't actually looked into this but I suspect that Corbyn is the first Labour leader to come from a London constituency (correct me if i'm wrong here) - in other words the first who does not come from one of the traditional Labour heartlands. For many years London has bucked the trend in England - in fact without London we would have had to endure a Tory majority at the previous election. London has been in Labour hands since it changed in the late 80s, the fact that the leader now comes from a London constituency is a sign of this demographic change.

 

This is my view on English politics:-

I'm 67 years old, born in Norfolk and raised in Suffolk from age 4 to 16.
My father was a farm labourer and staunch Labour voter, my mother worked in a sugar factory in Cantley
then in a Bird's-eye factory and was also a commited Labour voter.

Naturally I became a Labour supporter too and have voted for Labour every single
election since I was old enough to vote. I've never trusted the Tory Party to do right by
the lower classes.

I think Jeremy Corbyn is a breath of fresh air with his openess and honesty, I think the
present government are the biggest load of lying cheats in history, how they can get
elected on promises that are completely changed to opposite on election and then claim
to have the mandate to govern as they see fit, if people can't see that and can't see
through their spin and mis-quotation on Corbyn's every word then they are severley
lacking in any form of brainpower.

You may laugh at me and take the mick but my views will NEVER change!

That is all!

 

Good to see that your 12 years exile in Suffolk didn't change you into a tractor boy.

 

Dave, you need to get out more. There is a whole world out there.

 

If it's full of liars like Cameron and Osbourne I'll stay at home thanks!

 

Well said Dave....

We all have our own narratives/history which affect why we vote etc. Not logical.

My whole family voted Tory.... but had working class origins. I was brought up 'posh'. But it was the 60s and I rebelled against it all.

After a period of anti-establishmentarianism become a bit of a hippy mystic in my later teens .... then settled into a career in mental health.... and saw the effects of societal oppression on people. Then left to a radical degree , Peace Studies, during which I set up the second independent therapy centre in the UK. I worked with the oppressed pretty much ever since here and overseas. I In later years i have done a lot of private work as a coach and therapist and worked more with higher income streams. Have tended to vote Labour/LibDem/Green through my life. Disenchanted with mainstream parties led me more recently to become a Green party member. Philosophically sits well with me even though I cant go with their economic policies.

We have to have a world where all can live well together.

 

Come and have a drink with me we are fairly normal!!

 

I've said before, we will never agree politically but I would love to buy you a pint!

 

The beer is on me except I'm worried as there is an article in the Times today that Osbourne may be about to reduce the entrepreneurs relief on dividend sales. I think he is going to spread the grief about.

I'll tow my caravan up in the spring and see if I can convince you of the benefits of being a disciple of Thatcher.

 

We have very relaxed border controls into Weston, mention my name and you'll sail through!

 

Just seen the latest opinion poll on the UK political parties. Tories on 42% Labour on 27%. It is the lowest percentage that the LP have had since guess what? Michael Foot's days. Perhaps my knowledge of traditional Labour voters is not so bad.
In the Scottish election next year there are fears that The Scottish Labour Party will finish third. Something has gone wrong.

 

Hello Dave , don't know why , but I had you down as a much younger chap .
Love Weston and surrounding area , especially enjoy walking Brean Down ..happy memories of the place .
I must disagree with you on one point ...I don't think this current Tory government are the " biggest load of lying cheats in history" , I believe all tory governments, starting with Thatcher , through to now , have been 'orrible and deceitful toads ...all equally as damaging for the vast majority of this once proud nation .
Puff up your chest and pull back those broad shoulders ..We are not the lower classes ...we are the most noble of the classes , the rest would be nothing without us and our hardworking , long suffering forebears ..
We all owe a debt of gratitude to the Labour / Union movements .

 

Sorry, lifted this from facebook. It really made me laugh!

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OOOh how dare you, how very dare you, insulting my good fwend dave i'm so incensed I could throw my dummy out of my pwam.... Just joking... If we can't poke fun at our political leaders we've come to a very poor place indeed. On a serious note I have never been more aligned with what the conservative party are doing than right now be it on energy, defence, welfare, fiscal stimulation, migration it's almost as if I had written the current agenda

 

Excellent spending review and autumn statement by an impressive chancellor, pity he backed off from tax credit reform but overall very sensible policies.

Mcdonnell's reply was nearly as bad as Ed Ball's reply to statement a couple of years ago.

 

Clever politics to ditch tax credit idea. Most unpopular(and ill thought out) policy since possibly the poll tax. Would have had constant fights if he had simply "tweaked" it. This way people can accuse him of a U turn but his answer is simple : it is what the people wanted and we are a listening government so we listened and changed it. Turn a negative to a positive. Ask his accusers "would you like me to go ahead after all? - no - well there you go"