Off Topic Political Debate

Once again sp. you are taking it upon yourself to have an inbuilt knowledge of 'the traditional Labour voter', under what psychic authority do you do this ? Do you imagine that Blair was closer to traditional Labour ? You bandy words around like 'Communist' simply to describe anything that you don't like - am I to describe Cameron and his 'cohorts' as Fascists in retaliation....no, I would not be so stupid. Tell me are all Communists, spotty......or are all spotty people Communists ? Or is having a concern for justice and equality simply a juvenile illness which we will one day grow out of like measles ?

 

I am sure a number of Tories and anti-Labour people took advantage of their stupid rules allowing late registration for leadership voting. However somewhere I have seen that without the "newcomers" Corbyn still got about 50% (rather than 60%) of the vote - that satisfies me that the membership of the party wanted to move left.
Corbyn is happy to oblige - as he should.

However a democracy is NOT about party members but about voters. We will find out soon enough if traditional Labour voters welcome this left shift. Over nine million people voted Labour: 50 times their membership base. We will see how representative of the views of the 9m are the policies directed by the few. I do not consider one fiftieth of the vote as representing democracy - another reason why party membership numbers is not a relevant statistic in defining democracy

 

I mix with plenty of traditional Labour voters and they don't like Corbyn or his policies. They don't like his views on the monarchy, trident, nuclear deterrent, police response to terrorists, and finally his support for Irish terrorists.

Andrew Neill, the very experienced political presenter and journalist, said this week that the open hostility shown to Corbyn by his fellow shadow cabinet members, is unprecedented in his lifetime covering politics. If Corbyn suffers a bad May election night he will gone unless a leadership challenge is mounted beforehand.

It is quite common for many people in their teens to be attracted to communism, most people including myself grew out of it.

 

What do his views on the Monarchy have to do with this ? He has said that he is a republican.....so am I, but he has already said that he is not bothering to fight this battle so what more do people want. In my opinion also many Labour voters, and others, agree with him on Trident. Do you also think that he is in some way compromised by having had his photo taken with Gerry Adams ? Thatcher was a friend of Pinochet....did that make her a Fascist ? She also believed in the death penalty but it did not become subsequent party policy. Traditionalists will have the chance to argue their case for official party policy....just as Corbyn himself will do. The parliamentary Labour Party has been to the right of the rank and file membership of the party for at least the last 20 years but now democracy is coming into play. My belief is that Labour is leaving the 'middle ground' in order to concentrate on those 35% of non voters who have become estranged from politics.......only time will judge whether this is a wise move, but imo. it was the only move possible.

 

The only time the Labour Party has been in power recently is when it had policies that identified with the political middle ground. If The Labour Party seriously wishes to adopt Corbyn's left wing views then I am as pleased as much as you. If in the most unlikely scenario that the present LP management survives until 2020 I would fully expect an election result similar to Michael Foot's in 1983. His election manifesto was described as 'The longest suicide note in history' by the respected Labour Party MP Gerald Kaufman due to its more left wing content than usual. I believe the UK has moved further to the right than in those days which is why the three main party's manifesto was fairly similar at the 2015 election.

Electing a left wing leader is the easy part, finding support amongst the electorate will be much harder. He has certainly started very badly.

 

Just a reminder here that all of the points you made previously as being contentious amongst Labour voters ie. Trident, the Monarchy, position towards terrorism or Ireland are not typical 'left' wing positions. The points which are left wing, ie. nationalization of rail services, energy, minimum wage, NHS etc. have the support of the public.

 

Wait and see.

 

I think that there will soon be an indicator of what Labour voters really think at the Oldham by-election. As one of their safest seats with a majority of close on 15,000 it should be possible to see if Corbyn has got it right or wrong with his own supporters. If he is shown to be out of touch with the traditional Labour voter the PLP is quite likely to make a move to have him removed. If he is shown to have struck a chord with the members, the MPs will have to shut up. If he should be removed at some point you have to wonder who they have in Westminster to replace him. There is no-one who immediately comes to mind.

 

I think Trident, Republicanism, and Corbyn's views on terrorism and Ireland are fairly typical of a left wing standpoint. You will find few right wingers on those issues

 

Do Labour have a process to remove him - except at the hand of those who put him in so decisively?

 

What about the ex forces MP they tried to persuade to stand.? He is not tarnished like the other nondescript candidates were last time. Corbin must feel confident as he has not backed down from supporting and hiring controversial left wing bods.

 

I think Leo that what is termed as Left wing is different to everybody, it changes also through time. In its traditional sense it referred only to economics and the ownership of the means of production on the one hand, and to Keynesian economics in its softer form. I discount Republicanism here because Corbyn has made it clear that this is 'his' opinion and not to do with party policy. The other themes are not necessarily left. Maybe we need to define 'Left' and 'Right' more exactly because they have changed their historical meanings so much.

 

The question is would the parliamentary Labour party risk a coup against the rank and file, I very much doubt it.

 

Just read the Telegraph on line article re: Oldham by election. Private polling by the LP has suggested support could be halved.

Corbyn seen as a problem on the doorstep with voters.

Not looking good Cologne!!

 

It's not surprising because the public don't know him....or at least only through the media. But he has 5 years in which to work on this (by which time his beard will be even whiter and more shaggy).

 

Yes they do. If 20% of the PLP call a leadership election with a willing candidate, then one would have to take place. Another option would be for the PLP to have a vote of no confidence in him which would most likely lead to a resignation. It is also unlikely that a leader could survive if a number of his front bench resigned. It all comes down to the MPs, but he was elected as leader of the PLP.

 

If he becomes even more unpopular I might have to canvass for him, he is quite lovable like a three legged dog. I wonder if he owns a donkey jacket?

 

A political party needs foot soldiers Frenchie, people who go out knocking on doors at election times ie. the real activists. These people are for Corbyn and they are the ones who matter because without them Labour cannot win seats.

 

We will see cologne what happens in Oldham, but indications are that he could be in trouble there. What worries me is that the left wing parties actually send people to opposite extremes. It is likely that a couple of regions in next months elections here will move from the socialists to the FN because of incompetence by the current leader. If people swing from left to right they are not going to get out and do the door knocking.

 

I think left wing has always embraced more than simple economics - despite that being the starting point for Labour. I was not talking about Corbyn on Monarchy but a left-right stance - the barricades that brought down the French monarchy did not consist of the right wing rich. Around the world it is generally left wingers who overthrow monarchies.- there are dozens of examples. Anti-war group, anti-nuclear groups are predominantly left wing supporters - I know, as a Pacifist, I have been there. In British politics it was far more common to hear voices against our policy in Ireland coming from the left. The left wing, right wing continuum is very much more multi-sided than economics . However as Yorkie frequently reminds us this whole left-right debate is a simplification and not necessarily very accurate (it is however very convenient to shorten points being made)