1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Off Topic Political Debate

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Aug 31, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    but does any "democratic" country have more than about 5% as party members?
     
    #2921
  2. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    Both Belgium and Austria have over 10% of the electorate as registered members - I think the Scandinavian figures are also high. In Belgium and Luxembourg they have compulsory voting as well. Belgium is also a very special case in the percentage of immigrants which have gained citizenship is the highest in Europe, and with them all having to vote then at election time the parties are pretty busy there. We were in Liege for their elections and Ecolo (short for Ecologiste) had their programme done in 12 different languages.
     
    #2922
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2015
  3. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    OK - so still only 10% - I am not convinced that 10% of people being "activists" enhances democracy for me. In fact I am rather perturbed by groups of "activists" pushing their political views. Seems closer to mob pressure than I like. I have a view that democracy either exists or does not - I do not see it as a necessary evolution although I accept it can and probably will evolve. I have a simple view. Can I express my reasonable views openly and safely, can I stand for election, can I join a party if I want to and most importantly of all - can I vote in secret. If yes then I am satisfied. I understand you may require more.

    When 30 million people voted to express their views and many millions more were free to NOT express I consider our political democracy as passing a great test. Having activists joining parties does nothing for my view of democracy I am afraid -and extending the definition of democracy to "all organs of the whole society" is way beyond what I consider a requirement. Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are simply examples of ways to raise political issues successfully - and they exist and do just that. Is that bad? I do not share your assertion that real influence comes out of 1% of society (meaning I presume Party members) I do not think that many party members have any real influence at all - certainly in your example of a Conservative Party of 4 million you would not believe even a tiny percentage of them had real influence would you? So how does the numbers game help?
    If you really want to talk about influence (which in my opinion is not a measure of democracy) then you have to mention the media rather than political membership.

    No I am sorry but I remain very unconvinced but would love to hear from any others on this thread that agree with you
     
    #2923
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2015
  4. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,828
    Likes Received:
    14,305
    I am not that sure that it is democracy to say you must vote. Although many cannot be bothered, there have to be some who think about it and make a decision that they will not vote for any party. Belgium where my son-in-law works actually has quite a lot of invalid votes in the elections, so maybe there are a lot who don't wish to be ordered to vote.
    He tells me that some of the areas are very run down and are a breeding ground for unrest. There is a large Muslim population living in them that tend to vote for the left wing parties in some parts of the country, but the country is split into two by language, and what goes in one area does not happen in another. In some places the Christian parties get well supported by the Muslims. It is a small country in most respects and is not a very good example of voting patterns as it is too random.
     
    #2924
  5. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    I did not imply for one moment that Greenpeace were bad. What I want to see in society is people taking more responsibility for their own environment and that does not have to be via political parties. Movements like the transition town network, where a town decides that it is their responsibility to form an idea of how they can reduce their carbon footprint and do this completely independently of the government are just as necessary as being in politics. In fact it is every individuals duty to be able to measure their own carbon footprint and then to feel responsible for it. What I implied about democracy throughout society was to say that I do not believe that we can separate the 'political' sphere from the rest of society and say that democracy is meant only for there. Take the following example: The reeder Moller Maersk is responsible for over half of the GDP of Denmark, and around 40% of jobs in the country are indirectly dependent on this firm. When the Americans had to transport military equipment to the war in Iraq then they needed a Reeder to do this. P&O Nedlloyd, to their credit, refused but Maersk were all too glad to get this contract. Little wonder then that Denmark lined up with those countries supporting the war.......how many other cases are there like this. Where the private sector (or even worse one corporation) are richer than the country where they are located. How can democracy survive in such a situation.....so, maybe you can say that the state sector should always remain larger than the private, because only then can democracy survive...and I'm afraid I do say this because it is only then that the government has the necessary resources to turn the wishes of their electorate into practice.
     
    #2925
  6. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    Belgian politics is not only very random, it's also very complicated. But they do have the best beer in the World which is a great consolation for everyone apart from the Moslems.
     
    #2926
  7. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,828
    Likes Received:
    14,305
    And I have quite a stock of it. :emoticon-0100-smile
     
    #2927
  8. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,828
    Likes Received:
    14,305
    please log in to view this image


    This shows I believe that there is little interest for people across Europe to belong to political parties.
     
    #2928
  9. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    Interesting figures Frenchie....I overestimated the Belgian and underestimated the Austrian figures - you never can trust Belgians after a few beers, they tell you anything. Austria is not surprising when you consider the 'package' which their parties actually offer their members - more like a complete cultural programme like it once was in the UK. The Austrian Greens actually do things like running their own organic farms and generally doing work similar to friends of the Earth rather than just talking about it like we do.....sounds a lot more fun. The UK. compares well to ............ Poland !
     
    #2929
  10. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    257
    It is everybodys democratic right in a free society to choose whether to vote or not. Those who dislike the actions of the government have the right to either vote against an existing party or set one up of their own and seek a democratic majority in support of their ideas to get their desired change. I believe I along with the majority of the population value my freedom and my right to not believe the lies of the global warming fraternity and have no intention of measuring my carbon footprint or wasting any money or energy on trying to fight nature. More CO2 means more global capacity for food growth until we reach a level approximately 8 times current atmospheric levels. Its a fact that climate will change, species evolve and move but that's nature. Maersk is a great example of a down to earth guy, he still fishes for shrimp and sells them himself at his local market. Being a great employer and great person if he were to go into the political arena I'm sure he'd be elected..Companies do often get very large but they are still controlled by their customers which thanks to monopoly legislation means very rarely do they ever get the opportunity not to work in the best interests of the population. This is excessive in terms of intervention even in the USA where the DOJ have forced us to divest of highly profitable and well earned (by research) market leading technologies to facilitate business acquisitions. What happens in your model if the state sector is always largest and in fact holds a monopoly on a service or goods? This is the case in my good old chestnut of Venezuela where the state has effectively monopolized everything from food, medicine, transport etc under its direct control thus depriving the market of any competition and resulting in a reduction in the availability and reduction in quality of everything with the population then becoming dependent on the state rather than having the freedom and opportunity for self advancement.
     
    #2930

  11. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    Sorry but you know as well as I do that if the whole World used resources at the same level as in the West then we would need 4 planets for this - which we don't have. If you choose to believe a few bogus studies sponsored by the oil industry which go against all other empirical studies then that is your concern - global warming is real and a large amount of it is our responsibility. All people are responsible for their own Co2 balance - just as much as nations are. One more point, before praising Maersk to the skies you might like to ask about the working conditions on board his ships, the poisoning of Somalia's fishing waters - and also what has happened to stowaways on some of his ships.
     
    #2931
  12. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    11,075
    Likes Received:
    867
    As more details emerge about last weeks massacre it is incredulous how those terrorists were able to move from country to country, even visiting Syria, without alerting the authorities. Most were well known to the security forces but due to the Schengen Agreement they were able to cross many former borders with impunity.

    Is this not another example of Eurocrats deciding on policies which further more integration above common sense. I expect this agreement to be ditched within a week.
     
    #2932
  13. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    257
    Please address the scientific fact regarding the reaction of nature to increased atmospheric CO2. If one accepts that the planet is warming (it does this in cycles over history and we are still coming out of an ice age so yes we are probably warming). The planet has a way to go in terms of increase in CO2 in atmosphere to reach its optimum position for the support of life, in fact we probably can't get there because so much carbon has been locked up geologically in the form of carbonate rocks. I agree we are using resources at a rate that cannot be sustained and need to evolve our technologies to enable far more recycling (I believe in the science of non destruction but transformation ie we are not using up anything just converting and we need to find ways to complete the cycle to allow continued use). I find it sad that people and governments are believing the hype regarding mans importance in the global climate equation. This is a deliberate ploy by a select group of scientists, governments and businesses designed to instill fear in the populace to enable them to exert power and make money through the provision of useless unnecessary "solutions" as well as provide a means of preventing under developed economies from rising to bring western living standards to their people. When talking about conditions on Maersk ships I ask the question is the company employing press gangs to force seamen into working or are they choosing to do so as it creates a better life for them and their families? I have no idea regarding what Maersk is doing in Somalia (I thought their ships avoided the area due to piracy and I've seen nothing but beautiful clear water and indeed enjoyed eating the best fish I've ever had in local restaurants in the Yemen which is straight across from the Somali coast and the locals had no problem fishing. Any reference to stowaways also appreciated as I'm ignorant in this area. I can only speak with regard to what I know and from what people have said to me who have met the man personally I have only heard good at a human level.
     
    #2933
  14. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    Interesting - overnight the debate has moved on and now I am going to have to read it all carefully as there are some good points being made.
    Couple of quick points though. Agree with Aberdeen a good democracy gives you the right to vote OR abstain. Nothing in Cologne's arguments for the involvement of people in all kinds of activities makes joining a political party a good measure of democracy. If suddenly the Tories added a million more party members by say creating a load of "social centres" - would that mean our democracy had improved overnight - of course not. OFH's stats show that on average around one person in 25 joins a party across Europe - does that mean the whole of Europe almost is undemocratic?

    Finally I actually DISLIKE party politics and abhor most of the rubbish they spout - they are a necessary evil in my eyes as in a large state the idea of Athenian or Spartan democracy is not possible so that parties cannot help but be formed. They do not enhance democracy at all for me.
     
    #2934
  15. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    11,075
    Likes Received:
    867
    Leo

    To have different political groups with their own policies clearly set out for the electorate to choose from is the best form of democracy. In the UK most political observers recognise that a party will only be elected if its policies are attracted to the middle, which obviously includes the floating voters.

    Corbyn and his cohorts are now attempting to take the Labour Party well to the left. Although I think their task is bound to fail it has added some interest to party politics due to their more radical ideas. Unfortunately I'm sure this situation will not last very long as the views of the right wing of the LP are more representative of its electorate.

    Party politics is very complicated especially with a government with a small majority and a SNP group with a divisive agenda.
    I personally enjoy the cut and thrust, dodgy dealing and drama of our political system. Notwithstanding it is probably the most honest and transparent system in the world.
     
    #2935
  16. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    Leo, I think that Parties may be a necessary evil in so called representative democracy. In the USA. the parties are nothing like the cohesive units that we find in Europe and the banners of Democrat and Republican are very broad/loose camps without real 'manifestoes' in the European sense. The end result is that they do not pay for the election campaigns of senators or those in the house of representatives (because they also have a dislike of the kind of party politics existing in Europe) - and they often need to be elected, every 2 years in some cases. The result there is that they are more or less dependent upon sponsors for their election - is this any more democratic ?
     
    #2936
  17. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,987
    Likes Received:
    4,873
    Note that the left have 'cohorts' but Tories don't they have colleagues.
     
    #2937
  18. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    I accept it is a necessary form of democracy in a large state. Ideally a democracy would be a small entity where you would elect independent people who put themselves forward or were nominated and who were then elected due to their personal qualities. They would listen to the electorate and make decisions and laws based on the good of society as a whole - contentious issues could be decided by referenda. This is not appropriate for large modern states.
     
    #2938
  19. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    That is amusing as cohorts appears to have two definitions - an ancient roman military unit (which I doubt SuperHorns was referring to) or a group of people with a shared characteristic - wouldn't Corbyn love to have a few more cohorts at the moment? :emoticon-0100-smile. Also Superhorns appears to have missed the fact that it is the members of the Labour party who have dragged the leadership to the left by overwhelmingly supporting Corbyn and rightly he feels this is what his membership (if not his MPs) want. It would be odd if , having been elected for his views and principles he now chose to become another Andy (I'm all things to all people) Burnham
     
    #2939
  20. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    11,075
    Likes Received:
    867
    I fully understand the new LP voting system which was taken advantage of by hordes of spotty faced communists ( who will be voting Tory in a few years) plus many right wing infiltrators voting for Corbyn for some mischief. We had a similar experience many years ago when militant infiltrated the LP branches, remember Degsy? It took a while to chuck them all out.

    The traditional Labour voter is not represented by the current LP membership, another reason political party membership should be ignored as irrelevant.
     
    #2940
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page