Alli reminds me much more of a better version of Jenas than an up and coming Modric. And fully agree with RWAEB (tends to happen a lot). As much as I loved VDV there's no way I'd take him (even a young him)instead of Eriksen in this team. He simply didn't have the work rate or fitness levels to make it in a Poch system. In a system with inverted wingers, the area of the pitch traditionally occupied by the #10 is invariably the most hectic and physically demanding zone of play, with crowded channels and tackles flying in all over the place often from multiple defenders at once. VDV benefitted tremendously from the fact that we played a system with natural wingers. It also helped that they were two of the most dangerous wingers in the league. Bale and Lennon constantly dragged central markers into wide positions to double up for cover when the full back inevitably got skinned. This left acres of space for VDV to operate in. The current system, by contrast, often sees the full backs drifting inside where they know the danger is going to come from, so the #10 has to be constantly on the move and constantly ready to receive the ball. It's no coincidence that Eriksen covered more ground than any other player last year; I think we'll see the same statistic this year too.
CK, Woukd there be any credibility to a suggesrion,mthat the main thing you want to see from a number 10, is nicely weighted clever little through balls putting the striker in, and that for all his qualities, Eriksen doesnt deliver that in abundance ?
As I said in another thread, there's more than one type of number ten in football. For example, there's the trequartista whose role is to score and create as a deep-lying forward, such as Del Piero, Totti, Roberto Baggio or Sheringham - this is the role VDV was in a few years back just as Son and Chadli are used at present, and Poch used Rodriguez in this role at Southampton; there's the enganche/advanced playmaker whose role is to sit behind the striker and load the with through balls that split the centre backs, like Rui Costa did for Batistuta at Fiorentina - and Eriksen operates in this manner, just like Lallana did for Poch at Southampton; there's the wide playmaker who looks for space between the full back and the centre back like Di Maria was at Los Ladrones do Madrid - and Lamela is operating in a similar manner for us; there's the inside forward who cuts in between the full back and the centre back to create chances for themselves such as Messi; there's the target man who knocks the ball down for the number nine to score, such as Niall Quinn when partnered with Kevin Phillips at Sunderland - and that's before the madness that is false tens, defensive tens, or playing to number nines but giving one of them the number ten jersey like when Newcastle had Shearer and Ferdinand up front. Poch's system is based on having three versions of the number ten supporting one number nine: the most obvious ones are Eriksen as the enganche and Son/Chadli as the trequartista as they have been used like this since last season, while Lamela has certainly operated more as a wide playmaker this season compared to being used more as a winger under AVB. What this does is put additional pressure on opposition defenders: while they're occupied with one of those three that creates space that can be exploited by other players (for example Rose's through ball to Kane to score against Arsenal last week), and the passing and movement means defenders can be pulled out of position to create acres of space to exploit (such as the third goal against Villa a couple of weeks ago) - and this is what helps us score late goals, as their defence and midfield have been chasing shadows for 70-80 minutes and are going to be far more worn out than our players.
When people start using words like enganche and trequaritsa to describe positions on a football field, I start to wonder. I'm sorry, but this just strikes me as bullshit.
I think HBIC's got some good points there actually, although I think we need a crash course in Italian and Spanish understand what the f*** he's talking about I think this post clarifies for me your stance on Eriksen and it's definitely a good point. Part of my answer would be as I said above: Poch plays a system that knowingly and purposefully overloads the central channels, which makes it much, much harder for our #10 to thread these balls through as he has very limited time and almost no space. VDV by contrast had acres of space on regular occasions because Bale and Lennon were busy dragging defenders wide at every given opportunity. I'd also say that we tend to get carried away watching #10's playing in Europe or internationally where defences tend to be far more static and far less 'all action' that in the PL. So again, players like Iniesta, Gotze, Xavi, Messi will have far more time and space to measure those passes. The final thing I'd say is that Harry is completely the wrong type of striker to use in an eye of the needle system. He doesn't have the pace to run onto those passes. Moreover, he never, ever sticks to the central channels and very often takes possession at wider angles to the box and uses his strength and control to create goal-scoring opportunities. Players like Defoe and Adebayor (version 1.1) are more suited to that style as both were far less interested in dropping deep or going wide to link up play, and both had the pace to make those balls work. Hence both thrived with VDV. My impression of the '3' in Poch's system - and I could be misreading it - is to evolve into what HBIC is talking about; due to the acknowledged problem of congested central channels, that '3' needs to be as fluid and as clever as possible to literally interchange positions at a moments' notice, thereby making it impossible for the opposition to guess who will pop up when and where. This counteracts the fact that the opposition will likely have a cartload of defenders in crucial areas: if those defenders haven't got a clue who they're tracking, numbers are irrelevant save for extra bodies to block shots. This is what I see as Eriksen's greatest quality. More than any of our legion of AM's, he - when on form - is impossible to pick up. Like he did against Arsenal, they simply couldn't track his movement for more than a second or two at a time then **** - he's vanished again. That said, when the system calls for fluidity and confusing the opposition more than it calls for precise through-balls, he has the complete package to make that happen. His judgement is far better than Son, his work rate far better than Chadli, his awareness and positioning and weaker foot are far better than Lamela. That's why I say that when he isn't playing, we struggle. Not because we lack the clever through-balls, but because no one is leading the opposition on a merry dance and they are simply able to stifle our attacks through sheer lack of space and power of numbers. Great debate by the way, I never thought I'd become a keyboard tactician
CK has hit the nail on the head. Pochettino's front 4 all need to be able to drop off a bit and make a play, move into the striker position to be a focal pivot for the attack, and operate across the pitch in a variety of positions, out wide to stretch the game a bit if need be. That is why Poch has been banging on about bringing in players who can play in multiple positions (Son and Clint in the summer) because its not just about options off the bench, but interchangeability during a game. The starting positions in those 4 forward positions (LW, no. 10, RW, striker) are just the loosest possible approximations of where the player is most likely to pop up during a game, in reality they can and are expected to fairly freely move around. He played the same way (perhaps a little more defined) at Southampton with Lallana as 10, Rodriguez and Lambert switching between the left and up front, and a player normally fairly fixed out wide to stretch the defence. The difference at Spurs is that he hasn't had that player holding the width, which means we are reliant on our fullbacks to provide width a lot of the time (thankfully we have lots of attack-minded fullbacks) and also on the players ahead of them to have the intelligence to know when to stay wide and provide an out-ball, and when to come inside and create a little more space for the fullback to run into. That intelligent relationship is still developing and will be a work in progress - it is vitally important players know when to pull wide to provide an option and create space in the middle, and when to spin inside and try and go off the shoulder, as otherwise you end up with Lamela and Townsend last year constantly coming in off the right and congesting the space for Eriksen, and no option out wide. Chadli-Kane worked well last year as the latter likes to pull off to inside left a lot and the former has the physicality to threaten inside. Son is an upgrade on Chadli I feel, and on the other side it is down to Lamela to progress. End of keyboard tactics rant!
It's not describing a position, it's describing a role. Even the derpiest of MOTD pundits talk about one striker being a number nine and another being a number ten, yet do you dismiss that as "bullshit"? As I said earlier, both Teddy Sheringham and Niall Quinn can be considered number tens, yet they are not the same player by any stretch of the imagination - Sheringham would hold the ball and play a through ball for his teammates, while Quinn would jump higher than defenders to nod it into the path of his partner to bundle in from short range. Just because a player has a number on his shirt and a place on the pitch doesn't mean he's one thing: somebody wearing the number five jersey could be a centre back or they could be a sweeper, just like those in the heart of midfield could be a central midfielder, a holding midfielder, or a playmaker, a box-to-box midfielder, or a deep-lying playmaker etc. As for the terms, it's simply because "number ten" means different things in different countries. For example, in Italy the trequartista is their version of a number ten, and anyone who ever watched Baggio, Del Piero or Totti play could compare them to the typical English number ten of the 70s to the 90s such as Niall Quinn or Mark Hughes. Meanwhile, in Argentina, the term number ten refers to the eternal number ten, Diego Maradona - so the term enganche was coined for players like Ariel Ortega or Juan Roman Riquelme who sit between midfield and attack to play the killer ball.
I’m enjoying learning from the posters on this thread. It seems the system everyone more or less agrees we play depends for success on two things: credible wide threat from the fullbacks (meaning we desperately need Rose, as good as Davies has played this year) and speed in the buildup. The faster we try to make things happen, the less chance the defenders have to clump in front of the goal, and the fresher and sharper our attacking players’ movement tends to be. The team seems to be getting that. Dembélé finally started doing what I’ve always wanted him to do against Arsenal, which is get the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible. He’ll never outpace Gareth Bale, but moving the ball towards the goal reasonably quickly still tends to catch the other team unready to some degree.
The biggest question mark about Poch's system at the moment is what role N'Jie will be taking. He seems to be playing as and out-and-out winger at the moment, meaning he isn't a like-for-like replacement for anyone, so is he the mythical Plan B or is he going to grow into a role as time goes on?
I think the plan and hope is for Clint to grow into the flexible role. He may never develop the perfect weight of pass and vision you need for a true no.10 but his pace could see him arriving into the box as a threat from a deeper role, and if he develops his movement and learns to read the game well off the ball he could be a real threat off the shoulder and out wide. The biggest immediate question mark lies in the immediate future and role of Dembele, whose inclusion in the team demands more of a fixed structure as he is not at all effective or comfortable in the wide positions, but he has played so well recently (against all my, and I think a few others' expectations) that he is surely not in a position to be dropped straight away. Be interesting to see how Son's return to fitness plays into things in the coming weeks, as I think the ideal front 4 for Poch's metagame is Son-Eriksen-Lamela-Kane, but dropping Dembele right now would be harsh.
With everyone fit, there is probably no room for N'Jie, Chadli, Dembele, Mason and Bentaleb (not to mention Townsend and Davies). That is a tough set to keep happy. Hopefully there will be lots of rotation, keeping them all fresh. We trail off most years, would be good to see us firing on all cylinders from March onwards.
