Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost for support, not ilumination. If your investigation needs statistics, you ought to have done a better investigation?
But stats do show he made contributions and since that wasn't enough to get him a regular berth, he presumably let the team down elsewhere...perhaps drifting off for sections of the game. The latter would make him unacceptable for a team like us that values a very strong defence. Perhaps we can't carry a player who doesn't play 100% of the match.
Agree as well. Also, Davis has some superb skill (of the kind in which I assume the OP intended) when he decides to look up and go on a run. A few times I've seen him go round a number of players and wonder who that is, before realising it's Davis. Disguised passes, deft flicks, but as above, his first touch is sublime. He has it in his locker, but is very disciplined, so thankfully doesn't do it all the time, as we don't need him to be that player. One of his strengths is how reliable a possession-holder he is.
He's been hurt. A LOT. I don't think he was a fit for Pochettino's style, but that is less of an issue for Koeman. The loan to Hull was in theory a good move. I think it was less because Koeman had dismissed him as garbage (after all, he'd hardly seen him play) but rather that Ramirez badly needed playing time to get back to match sharpness. Except then he was slowed by a thousand niggling injuries again last season plus Hull was not good.
Actually I don't agree with that. He tries his best defensively. Although admittedly his defensive IQ and positional awareness isn't great when we lose the ball. But his work rate is high. It's why his defensive contribution is actually classed as one of his strengths in the player overviews on the stats site, and I agree with it from watching him play for us. I believe it's a huge myth that Ramirez is a luxury player. He tries to defend too much and has too high of a work rate to be one. If he wasn't South American, young and look how he does that myth would never have come about in my opinion. You need to remember how bad our defence was when he played an actual season for us, compared to what it's like now. Also the goalkeeper situation then.
Koeman talked about Ramirez's injury problems which hampered him at Saints, but Gaston said that Koeman told him right at the beginning that he was behind others and was unlikely to play much. Perhaps we have to accept this will always be a mystery to us...wrong player at the wrong club at the wrong time.
Stats are the only concrete evidence of contribution. There is absolutely no denying that Ramirez has had more end product than Lallana did for Saints in the PL. There is no denying other factors about the two players either. And by the way. Ramirez' first season at Saints he got 5 goals, 3 assists in 20 starts (6 sub appearances). We finished 15th. Lallana's first season at Liverpool he got 5 goals, 3 assists in 23 starts (4 sub appearances). They finished 6th, so Lallana was playing in a much better side than Ramirez was. This season Ramirez has played 10 minutes and got an assist. Lallana has 6 starts, 2 sub appearances for zero goals and one assist.
I hope you realise pretty much all clubs use stats now in great detail to analyse the performance of their players. We got taken to the cleaners in the Europa League by a team that's all about stats and analysis of player data. FC Midtjylland even makes big money signings just based on stats, data and mathematical algorithms. You can't really hide from stats. They record what the players actually does of note in a game. The biggest one you can't hide from is goals and assists. Ramirez has been better at that than Lallana since he signed for us.
There's use for stats, but saying 'he's got more assist/goals than him, therefore he's the better player' is way oversimplifying it. In so many cases it's far from truth.
Did I say that? No. I think they are about the same. Lallana is nothing special and never was imo. That's because his end product isn't good enough and never will be. His decision making is even worse than Ramirez' imo and that's why his end product is so bad.
Going to pick you up on this Rodney (see what I did there), but when used correctly by good analysts, statistics do indeed light the way ahead... But when interpreted wrongly, they can also lead you down the wrong path...
Now I don't like the lying cheating traitorous bearded gnome one little bit but you are making me chuckle. 2 managers preferred Lallana to Ramirez. His end product was more than just providing the assist or scoring. He would draw 2 or 3 players to him when he got the ball meaning when he laid it off there was more space. That was also probably why his stats for being tackled were higher than Gaston's. It is pretty laughable that you could suggest he was nothing special and never was. You use the argument of not playing regularly for Gaston yet don't mention it for Lallana at Liverpool. You also don't take into account that he was not playing the same position for both clubs and for a manager who dosen't have a clue about football. He was having to work aside Coutinho and Sterling at Liverpool, the latter not being one to pass or think of the team first. At Saints Lallana was very unselfish and played for the team. He didn't always try and score the minute he got the ball. He would try and take a couple of players out of the game and then play in someone else. This is a trait he is struggling with for England because Barkley and Sterling and many others are not team players and therefore he runs and runs and the ball doesn't come to him much. There were a couple of occasions when he got the ball and had 2 or 3 Spanish players at him and the other England players all ran ahead of him. Noone to pass to and then even Hoddle suggested he held on to it for too long. Ramirez could have been good, 3 managers did not put him in as first choice. Thats the end of it. Stats of assists and goals show the last 2 players to touch the ball. Lallana's key contributions were more in the build up to the goal that enabled the assists and goals. Keep on hating him, I do but get real. He was a great player for us.
He's a good player. I don't think he's a special player, or a great player. I never said he was ****.
He should be behind Davis. Because Davis is a fine player, who has stayed healthy and put in consistently good performances. He sets a tough standard. And JWP has enormous potential and is improving slowly but steadily over time. It was entirely proper that Ramirez should have to fight his way into the side. But rotting on the bench wasn't going to help him or the club. So a loan was the right move. I think Ramirez is better than people give him credit for, but I have no issue with us playing Davis. I thought Ramirez was treated a little harshly by MP at times, but really it's a minor complaint. Maybe just should have at least made the bench more often and gotten some 15-20 minute runouts. And I have no issues with how Koeman has handled him at all. I don't think he is lazy, or has a bad attitude. Like you said, it didn't work out, and maybe we'll never know why. I'm fairly certain Ramirez is finished here, and I wish him well but no way am I signing him to an extension (nor would I think he'd want one). I've pretty much turned the page. Clasie is the new Ramirez. I think it will be interesting to see if Clasie starts playing in Davis's spot or if Clasie takes the more defensive role in our psuedo-double pivot alongside Wanyama (leaving Romeu out in the cold). And of course we also have JWP and Juanmi as candidates for that spot. Davis deserves a spot in the starting XI until someone can take it from him. But he is facing some stiff competition. I think we've always been strong in the midfield spot throughout the Leibherr regime. The worst year we had was that first season in the Premier League and even then we had Schneiderlin, Lallana, Cork, Davis, and Ramirez.
Ideally, a team needs al it's players capable of threatening the oppositions goal should the opportunity present itself, just as it needs all it's players capable of defending when that's what's required. Being Dutch, Ron knows this.
How anyone can say lallana wasn't a special player for us is beyond belief. I can understand being annoyed with him and not liking him, but come on! He was incredible for us over a number of years in 3 different leagues. Possibly our most influential player during our rise, alongside Lambert. He was an incredibly special player for us regardless of how things ended.
