Off Topic Political Debate

Maybe the wishy washy liberals opposing our police from obtaining adequate surveillance methods will now understand the serious consequences on failing to prevent these terrorist events.

The police have thwarted many attempts in the UK, some are bound to be missed especially if their hands are tied.

 

What beggars belief is the idea that somehow this theme will disappear - we have millions of European born Moslems, Turkish in Germany, Algerian and Moroccan in France, Pakistani in the UK. They are not going away anywhere and the possibility of expelling people who were born here and consequently have as much right to be here as you or I do, does not exist. We will still be living with Islam in 50-100 years time in our big cities - do you want this to be on the basis of multi cultural understanding and mutual respect or not ? How can we expect moderate moslems to engage with us in discussion if we believe the whole of Islam to be backward and primitive ?

 

I'm not sure anybody is advocating expelling all muslims, except maybe those migrants living here illegally. It is widely accepted in the UK that the practical outcome of the idea of multi cultural groups has been a failure. There is often very little integration into the British way of life making it easier for misfits to be radicalised.

What should clearly be done is to stop the flow of migrants, this can only be done if we leave the EU.

 

The majority of Moslems coming to the UK. have nothing to do with the EU. and are controlled at the borders - what does eg. the Pakistani/Indian population of the UK. have to do with the EU. And why do you insist upon mixing up themes in the way ? Also, who are you referring to with the claim that multi culturalism doesn't work in Britain - just exactly who says that apart from the EDL, Ukip and yourself ? Or do you have your own opinion polls that you always make these generalisations on behalf of 'The British People' ?

 

Under EU law once a migrant has been awarded the right to reside in a European country, say Germany, they will be able to legitimately move to another EU country, say the UK.

Trevor Phillips, the former chairman of commission for racial equality for 10 years attacked the 'racket' of multiculturalism which took root under Tony Blairs government.

He said the inability to discuss racial issues contributed to the many child grooming scandals because authorities turned a blind eye.

He also said. 'Multiculturalism has become a racket in many parts of the country, with self styled community leaders battling for funds which prop up their authority and entrench segregation. Far from encouraging integration, it had become in their interest to preserve the isolation of their ethnic groups'.

Parts of the UK have been ethnically cleansed, where white or non muslim people feel unwelcome, that should never have been allowed to happen.

Neo liberal attitudes like yours and Blair's have greatly contributed to the current problems.

With hindsight the only thing I can agree with you is the UK's involvement in toppling of unsavoury dictators, who were by and large friendly to the west, has greatly contributed to the worsening security risk. Saddam Hussain, Assad and Gaddafi may have treated their own citizens terribly but on reflection were a better option than what we have now.

 

There is no possible justification for it W_Y from my perspective.

I just cannot see the EU membership question/immigration as being prima facie linked to this.

The UK dropped bombs on IraQ and now Syria and invaded Afghanistan as part of NATO. I believe we reap the price for that.

The Islam debate is deeply controversial. I just cannot accept the view that all Muslims are to be tarred with this. Can you.... really???

 

People were blown up last night for goodness sake

 

Are you playing some sort of game superorns? you have just posted exactly what I said to you earlier on.

I was replying to W_Y's post not yours.. with some reflection.

Do you actually seek to devalue debate? Or inflame??? Since you joined this thread at least two people have left these message boards.... as a direct result. There is no real attempt at consensus or finding a way forward. Just point scoring so-called party politics....

Yes people died last night... and my niece is there now.... and quite scared......

The situation is dire and I feel for the Muslim communities as some of those communities will suffer too through no fault of their own. I am not an apologist for Islam, do not like their religion any more or less than i like the other monotheistic religions. Good people will seek for and find good in their faith and i respect that.

 

Maybe we need to be pointing the finger of guilt more in the direction of international structures - we know that there will always be nutters in the World who are prepared to kill for their beliefs, and this is by no means confined to the Islamic World. Do we hold all Norwegians as being suspect because of Brevik's mass shooting there - did we even call it terrorism ? War, however, is big money and it is still the USA and Russia which are flooding the international market with weapons (USA = 31% and Russia 27% of World exports). Behind them comes China, Germany and France all on 5%. The flow of arms has increased significantly between 2005 and 2014 with more weapons moving in the direction of Africa, Asia and the Middle East - there are even some weapons being made now which can be more easily handled by children ! If we are really consistent in criticizing both dictatorships and terrorists wouldn't it be a good idea to start ending this abominable trade ?

 

Cologne this morning you stated

' I do not think that people from ISIS would cross the Mediterranean in flimsy boats or cross the Balkans by foot, they have other ways of operating - but I cannot prove this'

Referring to a Syrian passport found near one of the terrorists a Greek minister has said that the Syrian passport belonged to someone who had got into the EU via Greece in early October.

Are you ready to ditch your 'open door policy' yet?

 

There really is no need for that. I appreciate that you sometimes seek to wind people up and in many cases it can be quite amusing. It really is not this time.

 

Either your said it to me or replying to w-y's post

Which ever one your comment devalued a decent debate, your seem to only want to debate with like minded leftie posters.

 

This is a serious subject please debate sensibly.

 

Please don't patronise me.

 

For those who seek to stereotype:

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Not to devalue in any way what happened......

Never again....

 

Why continue to debate with anyone who cannot refer to anyone who disagrees with them without using lazy generalisations or plain and simple abuse? It's a waste of time.

 

It has a kind of masochistic charm - like arguing with people from the flat earth society.

 

Yes... sadly it really seems to be.

Bring back the old 606 days when we could close a thread too......

 

As someone who is living very close to the pain that the French people are feeling today, it is difficult to see through that and be totally objective. I have little doubt that this is not a problem with the true faith of Islam. Leaders across the world have condemned them and are truly appalled that it is being carried out in their name. These people wish to create chaos in democratic countries EU or non EU, and are simply trying to divide nation from nation, people from people. Already I have watched the extreme right wing here wading in with their claptrap of saying what is wrong, but no idea how to solve the problem. More co-operation between the intelligence services would be far more useful than trying to pull up the drawbridge and keep people out of countries, including the UK. You can put as much security as you like at airports or ferry terminals, but how many bombers try to carry their weapons through Heathrow or Dover? It is only when security information is passed between countries that the less obvious routes are monitored and terrorists picked up. One of the people responsible last night is a French national, known to the security service here. As far as I can see it is not possible to monitor every suspected person 24/7. How many UK nationals have already been radicalized and could be a threat over there? We do not know, but if there were similar events in London we would be saddened for the people caught up in the attack and hopefully not try to gain political advantage from it.

 

I would have thought keeping terrorists out of your country would be a sensible move along with improved co-operation between the intelligence services of different nations. I'm sure many weapons do arrive in the UK through our ports, along with unwelcome illegal migrants. Unfortunately the ill thought out Schengen agreement has allowed the unfettered movement of terrorists throughout large parts of the EU.

I do not support the Nation Front but Marie Le Pen is within her rights by repeating her view that the 'open door' policy and Schengen are political decisions taken by current Eurocrats and politicians that should be held to account.