Off Topic Political Debate

Not taking away pensioners benefits is a tax bribe as this is the group most likely to vote. It would make financial sense to take away some benefits from the undeserving (like me) during this part of the political cycle. It make not make political sense.

There is of course the argument that us oldies have paid a significant amount into the system over the years so fully deserve these perks.
My personal tax bill will incur a hefty hike soon due to changes to dividends.

"We are all in this together."

 

The last government did more for pensioners than others before by the triple lock. Previous administrations wrung their hands and said OAP's didn't get fair treatment, yet did nothing.

I have had my winter fuel payment removed because someone decided to include the French West Indian Islands in the average temperature figures. Someone living in Spain or Italy where it is warmer will however still receive one.

 

I have to say, superhorns, that apart from the odd shout out on the pure politics thread, you come across as a thoroughly nice man. I will never agree with you on a political sense, but I would love to share a pint or two with you, which puts you in the same class as every other poster on this board

 

I'll ask the missus if I'm allowed out!!

 

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How about this for a discussion point?

 

I'm sure it would be easy to find another smart arse declaring that 'trickle down' is by far the best system.

Are we any far forward.?

 

No.//I am glad you agree... why then is it supported by so many Tory economists and MPs?

 

I think most people have been very surprised and pleased by the employment rate during the last few years. The UK has benefitted, unlike several other countries in Europe, in having a business friendly environment. This encourages inward investment which other countries can only dream about. In addition, the ability to start a business in the UK without too much regulation creates flexibility and opportunities for many.

Finally to encourage foolhardy chancers like myself to gamble everything they own on a business venture the entrepreneurs relief is a useful carrot. To be able to only pay an effective tax rate of 10% on a business sale may seem generous but without it many businesses would not have been created.

As OFH can reaffirm the french do their best to load taxes and social costs onto their businesses which means they are not competitive.

I'm sure Cologne will come up with an alternative worker's cooperative solution. - Nah.

 

Agreed..... and i have heard a couple of horror stories from English folk near us in France who due to crippling NI have had business failures over there.

The point I was raising for discussion is the view that trickle down economics is good for the economy.

This was free market capitalism as espoused by Thatcher and others.

Current thinking is that it is not and just increases the social divide

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-get-richer-while-poor-stay-poor-9989183.html

You gov survey is interesting in that most people favour a higher tax commitment from the wealthy


https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/01/21/voters-dismiss-trickle-down-economics/

 

I'm not surprised that most people favour somebody else paying more tax. Its a bit like housebuilding, everyone agrees we need more housing stock, as long as it is not near them.

The wealthy do pay their fair share in my opinion, as I alluded to above if you squeeze them too much they will find a way to use their time or money elsewhere. The changes to dividends will hurt, I'm very surprised they were brought in by a Tory chancellor.

I cannot think of a better system that will actually work.

 

I want to see business tax avoidance loopholes closed. Just made myself very angry looking through the Russo brothers companies accounts where they ended up paying a couple of thousand pounds corporation taxes on nearly £700k profit, thats whats easily findable because can't get the isle of man stuff. This is where we need to clamp down not on the PAYE masses!!!!!

 

They obviously have more creative accountants than I'm used to!!

 

I do not believe that there are any schools of economic thought which work all of the time and in all circumstances. The 'trickle down' theory may have had some relevance in a time when money was less mobile ie. when there were restrictions on how much could be moved outside of a particular 'national' economy. Nowadays simply allowing the rich to get richer under the assumption that their spending will stimulate the economy is a miscalculation because so much of that wealth is lost either in money laundering or tax evasion - or simply goes overseas. In fact allowing the rich to get richer leads to concentrations of wealth which slow down economic growth - simply because money is no longer circulating as it should. It is much better for the economy if the base of the pyramid has more spending power - then you get a 'trickle up' phenomenon - the post war boom was based on just this theory. It makes perfect sense that if you allow one man to launder several million then he will be looking for ways of protecting that money - divide the same amount of money over 20 people and you have a much increased spending power. 'Trickle down' is just another of those myths of neo liberalism, along with the idea that everyone can get rich if they work hard enough.

 

Most people don't believe employment rates given out under Tory governments - ever since hundreds of thousands were re-classified by them in the past. If you add to that nearly a million who have been subject to 'sanctioning' it is no surprise to see the figures once again being manipulated. Amongst the hundreds of thousands of call centre workers, fruit pickers and zero hour contract workers are there many real jobs being created ?

 

I think you quite enjoy rubbishing the UK.

 

No, I enjoy rubbishing the supposed achievements of Tory governments, which is a different thing. There are so, so many things about the UK which I miss and would gladly have taken with me to Germany - it is the loss of some of those things, and the way Britain has changed in the meantime which hurts.

 

We could gladly send over Blair, Brown, Prescott and now Tom & Jerry. They are no use to us now we have a financially responsible government. You can also have some of our militant union barons who are more interested in bringing down our legitimate government than furthering their member's cause.

If you miss an old fashioned clueless leftie government stop off in France for a while.

 

I notice that there has been no comment from you, as yet, about the manipulation of employment figures so often used by Tory governments. I would venture to also suggest that 'clueless leftie' France still produces more than the UK. though I confess to not knowing a great deal about the country.

 

I doubt that the UK manipulates the unemployment figures any more than they do in France. It is only when you look at a breakdown of the figures that you realize how much spin is used to make things look better than they really are. Zero hours contracts exist here, but under a different form. Call centres exist as in the UK, although if you wish to seek help about your telephone or internet you will quite likely speak to someone in Africa who has less command of the language than even I have. Youth unemployment has dropped over the last couple of months, mainly because the communes have been given money to take on people for a four month trial period, but there is no actual job at the end of that period. Against this however the number of people who have been without work for more than twelve months has grown month on month, showing that there are no 'real' job opportunities being created. Maybe one of the worst set of figures show the number of people who once ran their own companies, but gave up the uneven struggle to pay all of their taxes, and are now unemployed. We have seen the large companies with government holding the major shareholding being exposed as receiving illegal loans, yet still failing. It is the small companies that will create jobs and wealth for those they employ, yet for idealistic reasons the government doesn't wish to help them.

 

That's the reality of State Socialism the Cologne craves OFH and would turn a blind eye to its realities. State ownership of the means of production and the creation of wealth is the socialist dream that has never been realised and always floundered on the rocks of reality. France is a nightmare for trying to implement change, weighed down with over regulation and union power. After 3 years of "negotiations" with the unions, my company still cannot provide its service engineers with Tom Tom's to help them navigate and avoid traffic jams - of course the company benefits with reduced travel times, better engineer productivity, fuel savings. But overall it' benefits everyone - but the unions say Non. I am just finishing a project to deploy a mobile app to engineers in Germany and the laws and unions there are almost as bad - in Germany you are not allowed to measure an individual's performance, so any reporting or management tools have to be heavily restricted.
I find it amazing that all the pro EU people accept the illegal state support of failing industries and illegal state subsidies - just as the EU turned a blind eye to allowing Greece and all the other economic failures to join the club. Still onwards and upwards, Queen Angela will now rush Turkey onto the gravy train.