Automotive manufacturers, use consultancies - Merc HPE isn't really Mercedes and started out in a similar way. I don't see why vw wouldn't want to have a starting point, especially considering how hard Honda and Renault have found it. I can agree it's the implementation that's the biggest problem, but I don't think the complexity helps. Having watched F1 solidly for 25 years, I've felt less and less interested and missed multiple races since this formula came in. It's been obvious since the first day of testing 2014 that Hamilton would get the next three titles and with little hope of the situation changing it's been easy to prioritise other things. I'm not surprised the viewing figures keep dropping.
While I can't disagree with the comments about the consequences of the new PUs on the sport and its hierarchy, I do think that, ultimately, what this boils down to is a massive hissy-fit from Red Bull because they haven't been able to accept that their reign of dominance has ended and now they are having to try to manage the consequences of their behaviour. It seems odd to me that all of the top brass within the organisation are oblivious to the real reasons behind their predicament, surely someone would have a degree of self-awareness here; a decision must surely have been taken to pursue the line that they have taken, collectively, in an attempt to push things to the brink and see if the others blink. Well, that's how it appears to me right now, anyway. To this end, I find it interesting that the normally more confrontational Horner has been making more emollient public statements re. Renault, while the generally less vociferous Newey, who is publicly perceived as less abrasive than Horner, has been wheeled out to take the more aggressive line previously pursued by Horner. In the end, I think it's all part of the same game of threats and intimidation that they have been playing for a long time now and I suspect that the end result will be a rapprochement with Renault because they have played too many vindictive games against their rivals for the latter to be daft enough to capitulate to their spoilt-brat demands. And why should they when it is so obvious that RBR are trying to re-cast the narrative of their failure in such a disingenuous manner? Come clean, guys, that would be a good first step.
Responding to these in here rather than the race thread. Well I think it makes absolute sense for Honda to want another team to supply, especially an outfit as capable as Red Bull, and I thought it was insane that they sought exclusivity in their first year when they needed the mileage more than ever. From Red Bull's perspective, it's not the competitive power unit they want, but they need something in the back to keep them on the grid. If they are to withdraw it's not practical for them to just close down two teams at short notice. There'll be huge redundancies, big fines and some expensive assets will lose huge amounts of value. Their quit threats have never carried much weight because they don't have a viable exit strategy, in their attempts to be taken more seriously they've caused an enormous of damage to their team. I agree with Kaltenborn's comments that they should just take what they can get and get on with it, be that 2015 Ferrari engines, Renault or Honda. They can stamp their feet all they want but Mercedes and Ferrari aren't going to give them their works engines, Renault and Honda are incapable right now of producing that. If Red Bull aren't happy carrying on in the sport under those circumstances fair enough, look for a way out, but in the mean time they need something in the back of their cars while they plan their exit, and the sooner they realise that the better off they'll be.
Why? They are inept. But you underline the problem with Britain, a piece of paper that means totally incompetent people stay in positions they are ill equipped to cope with. Is it any surprise 0 hour contracts are on the rise, it's the only way companies can protect themselves from people who have risen above their competence. I wouldn't pay for something that doesn't work as it's supposed to, I'd be quoting my consumer rights and demanding money back for items that were not fit for purpose. I'm not surprised it's an RBR bash, and that people are totally ignoring Renault. They got a freebie thanks to Honda, and still ****ed it up. They have been poor, very poor, which is why everyone else dropped Renault as a PU supplier. Williams changed to Mercedes, (they must've seen the writing on the wall) then Caterham went to the wall, and then Lotus, the former Renault works team, decided they wanted to race closer to the front and jumped ship to Mercedes. But don't mention that the only teams left with Renault are RBR and their junior team, or that Renault have done such a poor job that they're being forced to buy a team just so they'll have a car with their PU. It's the same with the 'historic payments', another current RBR bash, yet IIRC they simply bargained for parity with Ferrari. RBR aren't the cause, they are the symptom.
They're both. At one stage they were the 'smaller' team, probably fighting for the same rights that the others are trying to get now. Red Bull then got what they wanted and left everyone else below them stranded. Instead of calling for parity for everyone, they just had their own interests at heart all along. They could have been part of the cure, but chose to manifest into the main virus.
No problem with them dropping Renault. Big problem with them threatening to quit because their rivals, yes that is the key word, won't supply them with their engines that THEY have worked so hard to create. No one else has threatened to quit when having to overcome adversity- and look at what McLaren have had to face this year- they still keep on working away bit by bit.
Ron has vetoed Honda supplying engines to Red Bull. Can't think what poor Horner & Hemlut have ever done to deserve this kind of treatment from the other teams
Pretty typical of society as a whole. People have principles or they have privilege, nobody has both. Pretty unambitious for Dennis to veto Honda supplying another team. It seems the scope of their ambition is eighth in the constructors' thanks to two teams going out. Having Honda supplying to other teams would've helped them get back to the front quicker, but McLaren no longer seem interested in winning.
I would have thought that having Red Bull using Honda PU would push McLaren back not forward. i.e. IF Honda manage to create a decent PU with all the tokens + wastgate Free turbo redesign then Red Bull using the same PU would, in all probability, be finishing in front of McLaren.
Well that's the view they're taking, hence my comment that their ambitions don't stretch beyond finishing eighth in the constructors. If they had any ambition they'd look for anything that's going to help them improve their engine and then worry about beating Red Bull. I don't necessarily agree that Red Bull would beat McLaren anyway. If they're going to take Honda engines they're not going to be investing as heavily in chassis development, why would Mateschitz keep spending so much money to fight in the midfield? It would just be a stop gap solution to keep them on the grid until they find another supplier or a buyer for the team. Either way it's a pretty spineless decision from Dennis.
At various points over the last 2 years Wolff and Hamilton have both gone on the record acting the big I am over welcoming/wishing for competition, but surprise, surprise when the opportunity to provide some comes up, they're not interested. I don't blame Wolff particularly, he's paid to ensure Merc win and would look pretty stupid if RB started beating them with their own engines. In Hamilton's case, I doubt his opinion carries much weight on topics like this and it would true to form for him to be talking it up publicly and pushing against it internally anyway. I see Max, Bernie and Jean are now pushing a 2 tier system. I've always hated these ideas and it sums up how stupid this situation is that somehow it seems quite appealing compared to the alternatives.
Yeah I find it really exasperating when people go on about Hamilton being a real racer, a real champion etc. because of empty sentiments about wanting competition on track. If it came down to it he'd refuse anything that damages his chances of winning, he's all talk. It was really refreshing to hear comments from Valentino Rossi saying that he fell out with Yamaha the first time because he didn't want them to hire a team mate (Lorenzo) who was capable of beating him. There probably isn't another driver/rider in top level motorsport who is humble enough to admit to something like that. And yeah this engine proposal will be so damaging to a sport that's already in tatters. Ultimately this is going to see the withdrawal of Mercedes and Ferrari I fear, and this "equivalence" engine will become a control engine, the sport will be even more aero dominated until it eventually becomes a spec series and then dies.
That can be levelled at pretty much all of the WDC's since at least 2000, Button probably being the only exception.
Yeah I tend to agree (assuming you mean all the others would try to have everything stacked in their favour). Fans and commentators don't say those things about other drivers though, and no one talks themselves up quite as much as Hamilton in my opinion.
Yeah that's pretty much what I was saying. Can't think of any of those drivers that haven't appeared to have been favoured (publicly admitted or not) by their teams, or stuff they have written into their contracts to make them no.1. Schuey + Ferrari Alonso + Briatore + Ferrari Vettel + RBR bosses Hamilon + McLaren (definitely in 2008) and now seemingly Mercedes. As said, Button 2009 seems to be the main exception with Brawn where they didn't bother having 'favoured' status as they never thought they'd be in that position in the first place!
My original point wasn't really about number ones, it was about saying one thing and doing another. We're well off topic in terms of Red Bull now though. To lurch it back round, as team with no current favourites policy and a very likeable driver in Daniel, for that at least I'd like to see them stay,
Oh, it's pretty obvious, they thrashed everyone with an under-powered engine, now the works teams are too scared they'll get thrashed by their own engine.they'll veto them at every opportunity. but yeah, it's all RBR's fault As for historic payments, where's the screaming and crying about McLaren, Williams and Mercedes's who also get money? Or Renault, who will get it if they buy Lotus. Where's the wringing of hands? Is it because they're 'a fizzy pop' team that beat your boy for four years?
Is your reaction because 'my boy' (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) is now thrashing your team and you've got the arse because of it? When did RBR ever try to make the rules equal!? It's not just Merc holding out against them. Ferrari and McLaren are joining the anti-RBR party. RBR have dug their own grave. They don't 'deserve' parity, no one does. If they can't sort their issues out with Renault, boo-****ing-hoo to them. It's not down to Mercedes to give the others a chance, it's for the others to catch up with them, exactly the same as what was said when RBR were winning everything in sight. It's okay though, another major rule change looks to be on the cards, and as we have seen from last time, a major rule change always evens everything up.........
This argument ignores the fact that F1 requires you to be a constructor, whereas you don't have to build your own engine. When RedBull were dominating, no one was stopping anyone else from doing the same, it was just that Vettel and Newey were better at it developing and exploiting it than anyone else. I'm not as down on Ron and McLaren as some. Competitively, they've paid the price of developing the Honda engine this year, I think they've earned the right to have Honda focussed on them for a while. It doesn't matter what RB do - if no one will supply them, they'll have to leave. The sad thing is that this situation was so predictable, rules about minimum supply amounts would have gone a long way to avoiding this.
They don't want to hear sense, they just want an excuse to bash RBR and ignore the facts. Apparently refusing to part with £100m's for something not up to the job is acting spoilt and childish, whereas not selling your engine for fear of being beaten is not.
