Neil isn't addressing the main problem, yes he got the Tettey decision wrong but there is that giant elephant in the room which nobody dares face, the fans know exactly what the problem is but there are certain favourites who will never be dropped or replaced unless there is an injury or a suspension, I really do hope this is a big wake up call for everyone at the club. I urge people to drop the whole his 'A good bloke' mentality and have a hard dose of realism, there are regulars at this club that are simply not cut out to play at this level, they are being found out at this level not just the dozen or so soft goals we've already conceded, but the lack of pace and the amount of space we gave Newcastle yesterday was criminal, the statistics don't lie.
bassong was crap yesterday ..he cant play out from the back ...so its no use him trying he anit got the ability ..went missing in marking aswell.. im aq toon fan and it stuck out a mile .. mind it wernt a 6 2 game either best of luck
There's a theory I've been working on over the last few games about Russ. And it sort of links what Tob has been saying into the defence issue. I think the team know that russ has some real defencive deficiencies, clearances and aerial balls in particular but also frequently while reading the game well he struggles to play within the team of 4 that he's in at the back which sees him caught out of position. The result of this is that the defence in particular Tettey has to compensate. Without him covering Russ made the same positioning error twice in 4 minutes and cost 2 goals. This in effect is damaging the way our midfield play as hey have to cover the defence too much. Several times at set pieces we have had midfielders marking the Maoist dangerous players not our CB. This means that russ doesn't get called out as the one who made the mistake but his weakness is effectively forcing other players to play out of position. I think this was most obvious against Stoke. To me its telling the only clean sheet we have kept this season was against West Brom with Bennett and Bassong playing. I like Russ he's been a great servant of the club and is a good captain. Luckily it looks like a space might be about to open up in his best position. How fortunate.
My main problem with this whole Martin saga (which has been going on for about two and a half years now): (a) is R Bennett really any better than Martin? Martin might have all the deficiencies in the world, and he might well be the worst starting CB in the PL, but if we haven't got anything better, what the hell does it matter? Why do people keep complaining and then celebrating when they think they are "proven right" because he plays badly? The problem with this forum is that it has become about point scoring and then complaining when everyone isn't worshipping you for being "proven right", rather than actually attempting to analyse what can be done about the situation. I know people do enjoy being pessimistic and that's fine, but let's have a chat about what can be done rather than just moan, eh? (b) why is it that everyone is focused on this thread on Martin? He was undeniably very poor yesterday. He's no world beater. And yet every bit of objective commentary I've read (thank you leez) not just from Newcastle fans, but during the match and in the written articles have been more focused on how poor Bassong was. And he really was bad too. Yet the Martin haters would rather hate him than accept that Bassong was a long way from good too. So yes, our defence is the worst in the league, and yes, Martin isn't great at CB. WE ALL AGREE. I DON'T KNOW A SINGLE NORWICH FAN THAT WOULDN'T HAVE BITTEN OFF THEIR ARM TO HAVE HAD VAN DIJK JOIN US IN THE SUMMER. (well maybe that last claim was a bit strong). The point is that no-one is really disagreeing with this. But let's have some actual ideas on what can be done: (A) Start R Bennett or Wisdom. That's the main option for us. I'm not convinced by Bennett at all as I've seen him have some absolute shockers (yes, even worse than Martin), but after the debacle yesterday it has to be worth trying. Wisdom doesn't really excite me as a CB, and I thought when he played that although he doesn't get forward as much as Whittaker, his delivery was pretty good, so the alternative is to swap him in at RB, though I appreciate that won'd placate the Marting haters. Or maybe we could do both. (B) Shore up midfield. They were all over the shop yesterday (please don't jump on me usual suspects, it was basically a fact that our midfield was atrocious especially after Tettey went off). Mulumbu might help here. There's a lot of training work that needs doing - maybe taking a look at how Leicester are defending because their players are probably the closest in level to ours out of the teams doing really well this season. Certainly at fullback we need more support as we were killed out wide on the break yesterday. Utterly destroyed with both fullbacks being way out of position. (C) Wait until January and pray? I'm praying that's not our strategy tbh, because the reality has hit home that we're going to be in for a pretty awful season if we keep playing like that and the fans get on individual player's backs.
Rob I imagine there unknown tribes in the amazon fully aware of your views on Martin and your defence of him is as relentless as those on here who criticise him. However your points about our options are pretty much spot on. Personally I would bring in ryben who I know you utterly don't rate and shift rusty to right back. Regardless of any of our opinion of ryben he is the next cab in the rank and given our lack of defensive cohesion something needs to change. Maybe having a big strong centre back will plug up the aerial deficiencies we have and reduce the risk of set piece concession. It may also give ruddy who seems woefully short of confidence a bit of a morale boost. Maybe having a defensively more sound right back will plug another gap as whits is currently a massive liability. I think that baths analysis has some merit and again if we have a more forceful centre half it could allow the midfield players to mark less dangerous opponents. For me we can either blithely go along conceding every single game and hope that we can score one more than our opponents which most of the time in the premier league we won't or we can at least try to do something different. Ryben may not be the answer but I would argu that he is the best alternative we have got. Your argument is that the current back five are the best we have and they may well be but the bottom line is that they are not working. We have a soft centre and a huge problem at right back. We can do nothing or try something. It may not work but surely change has got to be better than doing nothing and dying with a whimper.
3-6-1 might be bonus option D? Ruddy Martin Bassong Bennett Whittaker Tettey Brady Mulumbu Howson Hoolahan Mbokani
Excellent post, thanks Norfolkbhoy. I'm inclined to go with Ryben too over Wisdom. Neil also seems intent on keeping Martin on the pitch (his love child ), so that might be the best solution. One unavoidable problem we have is that Martin is our captain and however much we criticise him (and Whittaker) for whatever reason these players are in Neil's favour - jokes aside. I would also like us to try two DMs and drop Brady for Jarvis (not necessarily at the same time, but together with CB changes). I know Brady has been excellent since he joined us, but (bizarrely given he doubles as a LB) I didn't think he offered Olsson much cover at all yesterday. I think Jarvis works so much harder to get back and given that Olsson was one of only two players to come out with much credit IMO (Mbokani being the other and given that Olsson was shocking defensively and positionally it's really only that he was good going forward...) I think it would be harsh to drop him, though back to Brady and Jarvis is definitely an option. PS I don't deny I've defended Martin a lot, but despite all the posturing I can assure you it has only been in the sense of "let's have some perspective and look at what he is good at" and "have/can we got/get anyone better than him?" It's the same defence I've raised with Whittaker and Steve Morison et al - that doesn't mean I think they're world beaters, on the contrary I'll be critical (and have been of Martin in the past, but that inevitably gets forgotten). The reason it sounds like I've been relentless in defending him is simply because he comes under so much unjustified criticism (as well as justified - I don't have a problem with that) while other fan favourites get of scot free. I appreciate the nuances are often lost when posters are so frustrated with how bad someone is playing. It's just I also feel like there has not been a week gone by when someone hasn't brought up Martingate and it's boring everyone! (And coming from me who I know people feel has far too much stamina for banging on, that's saying something...!)
I keep meaning to post on this but every time I do Rob goes and posts pretty much word-for-word, exactly what I would like to say, so no need for me to say any more than that I completely agree with all you've said on this today fella (particularly if the "fan favourites" you allude to are Messrs Ruddy and Bassong)
Can somebody please explain to me why NCFC can achieve a creditable draw against Liverpool away but get stuffed by Newcastle away? Sorry if this has been dealt with before on another thread. If AN decides to strengthen defence in January will players be attracted to Carrow Road if we are languishing near to or in the bottom three?
'Worst in Premiership history' seems a bit dramatic. But it's certainly not working well. Ruddy looks like his confidence is gone, Bassong is starting to seem mentally fragile again, the need to play Martin as captain has meant that Ryben (potentially a much better central defender) has not been given a chance to progress, Whittaker is strong against lesser teams because of his strengths going forward but very poor once we hit quality opponents, and there seems to be a gaping hole between our midfield and our defence (with the exception of Tettey). The sooner Mulumbu is back, the better.
I wonder how solid we would be if we played Tettey AND Mulumbu in front of the back four? It's got to be something AN will be considering when they're both fit. IMO Mulumbu has a decent range of passing, the thing is that Howson or Wes would have to make way. Honestly though I really hope we've learned some lessons and bring in a couple of defenders in January. Just a thought, what do you suppose is the fewest number of clean sheets a team has had and still stayed up?
Yep - I would definitely like to see Mulumbu back in next to Tettey. I think with Howson ahead of him tbh, then bring on Hoolahan after 60 mins or so to try to attack more. That's essentially what Neil was going for I think, but unfortunately taking off Tettey meant no-one was offering any sort of cover. Clean sheets... a totally non-scientific glance at this: http://www.statbunker.com/competitions/Top10KeepersCleanSheets?comp_id=515 Suggests it might be none other than Norwich City 11-12 with just 3! It's difficult to tell though as you have to count up all the 'keepers and I haven't got the time...
I was thinking the same way earlier, DH. One of the problems is that our FBs (including Brady) are much more like WBs in their play. Brady played as a WB very effectively at Hull and both Whittaker and Olsson could do so as well (as could Elliot Bennett). Both Martin and Bassong are comfortable stretching out to cover the flanks (I'd put RB in the middle) and the DM could add cover when that happens. I'd move Mulumbu back alongside Tettey, but as a DM/CM with more freedom to get forward. Howson and Hoolahan would have freer roles to link play to Mbokani It's also worth noting AN's comment in the PinkUn today: “We need to re-group and make sure we defend a hell of a lot better than we did (at Newcastle). As a group, not just defenders, we were really poor. It’s not that we couldn’t deal with the counter-attacks but our starting positions were poor as well. We scored twice from counter-attacks but they defended better than us one versus one.” As for clean sheets, Lambert's PL team had very few and survived quite comfortably.
It matters alright, you step up to the mantle the second you put that shirt on and if your not doing the job well then you have to face the music, four of our defensive players were **** on Sunday and that needs to be acknowledged rather then swept underneath the carpet like it is at times, we're a Premiership club and we shouldn't ignore failure. People have analysed what can be done about the situation though, they have done since last season, it's a bit of futile question Rob, we can discuss the only other centre back we have on the books Ryan Bennett or bringing in Wisdom? But there is nothing to chat about as we have no backup.
I'm not sure I follow Northants, sorry. I agree that if you're not doing your job well you face the music, but my point was what is to be done if there is no-one that can do the job better... It's not a case of sweeping it under the carpet, that's the point! It's not ignoring failure! It's a case of recognising that there is an irremediable problem (right now) and working out the best way to manage it. I may well have missed it, but I have seen very little analysis of what can be done. I've only ever seen criticism of Martin (some justified, some not so) and Whittaker (generally justified, but again some hyperbole) and that's about as far as the analysis has gone. So it's all very well moaning, or alternatively trying to shut down debate by accusing people of asking futile questions, but frankly I'd rather think that maybe, just maybe, our manager has it in him to get the best out of the players we have got until we have a chance to upgrade them. I'd like to discuss that rather than moaning or declaring that we have nothing to chat about. It's a shame because I knew as soon as I was accused of defending Martin above that it would come to this. People would rather this forum was silent. If you don't want me to contribute, fine.
Personally, I prefer Martin at right back. I would like to see Ryben given a go with Bassong - but these are the problems I see. 1) Martin is the captain, and Bassong would listen to him when they are playing as a pair. 2) Bassong being an ex captain - would he listen to Ryben if they played as a pair? If Bassong didn't listen to Ryben, would this cause more misunderstanding in our already overworked defence?
I'd play Wisdom at RB against West Brom and drop Dorrans (he's been one of our most disappointing players so far IMO). I'd keep Olsson, Bassong & Martin in the lineup for now. Tettey absolutely has to be on the pitch.
