Off Topic Only in America

Elle is absolutely correct in what he says. I know plenty of ex-pat Brits and Europeans living over here who all, to a man, have fruitlessly tried to argue against gun ownership. We have all given up arguing about it (though mostly keep the same belief -- to ourselves). I now have extended-family members (sons-in-law and their parents and siblings) who argue vehemently in favour of gun ownership. The silliest part is they all keep their weapons locked up, or in some secret place, away from their kids. Fat lot of use that would be in an emergency!
Most sensible people over here generally agree that tighter laws are needed regarding gun purchase, but as Elle makes clear, that alone would be but a small step in the right direction.
In the last few months, even Cincinnati, a fairly cultured city but with wide divisions between the relatively rich and educated, and the abjectly poor and uneducated, has seen a dramatic increase in random shootings and murders -- almost always confined to the same few "ghetto" areas. Unless you've lived in a similar city for a number of years, you are in no position to make meaningful comment.
Guns are one of the few things over here that I wish I could change. In most other respects, the US is a wonderful place to live and raise a family. Unfortunately, many (less educated or travelled) Brits hold ancient views on many things American -- the quality of US universities and education in general (versus the UK) is another such broad area of misguided opinion and sheer ignorance; but that would be another thread.

 

Pennies maybe, but you can't argue that if the government doesn't spend something that they lose it! An individual department maybe does, but it is still money which exists which can be used for other things ( even if that thing just paying off a gargantuan debt)!

I will genuinely look forward to your thesis you've said you'll write...I mean that because while I do have my opinions, not shared on this thread I don't think, about US gun ownership I certainly don't understand the issues

The only thing I would say though is that if there should be a change on gun ownership in the States ( I don't know whether you think there should be in an ideal world , but are of the view it won't happen?) then it has to start somewhere even if it takes decades to have an effect

 

Ill write it up. It will take a long time, but I will start today.

I definitely think we need change and that it just wont happen. I believe (and may I say probably a majority of people believe) that we need stronger gun control and would like to see certain steps taken that could within the frame work of our legal system occur that might avoid being tossed out. We wouldn't be the US if we had 0 guns, we would be some other country, so an ideal world where you could some how take 100% of the guns off the street would be a parallel world if that makes sense not one based in reality. Clearly if we want to address the situation we do have to start somewhere, but that somewhere needs to be the foundation for change that you build upon. The fundamental change being the mechanism that allows you to change the system down the road that can then effect not just the possession of guns but what causes those guns to be used. That type of foundation of change would probably have to be Campaign Finance Reform.

 

I saw this on Facebook this morning, I just can't believe it's real!

 

Bloody hell, Ellewood; had you been drinking?

You’re pretty damn disparaging, not just about me, but just about every other poster on this board and anyone who you think doesn’t have to suffer your gun issues and isn't entitled to an opinion on them.

Do you really believe that your society and culture exists in a bubble that the rest of the world is incapable of coming to terms with gun issues, at least to some degree or another – maybe as poorly as American society seems to (if we are to believe your President and many senior leaders)?

Maybe sometimes folk can be too close to the issues, but that is a tangent we don’t need to go down.

I didn’t make any reference to the authorities knowing he had a gun, he didn’t either, he simply filled in the relevant paperwork, sent it in and cut up his firearm – it was an act of conscience, not political or financial, but an act of abject horror at what he thought he had perpetuated and he listed the reasons for this. there was no mention of a list - you made that up for no other reason than to discredit my very simple point.

Have I mentioned a list – no is the answer. I don’t believe that took too much understanding; he wasn’t interested in the pennies as you seem to be, his political motivation doesn’t shine through as yours does. So you accuse me of having so little understanding, all based on a figment of your imagination, which leaves me questioning both your understanding and your attitude to discussing it - your later comments take that to a whole different, unpleasant level. I know Americans who would be appalled at what you have written.

After Dunblane we had no idea what guns were in our society, but we soon found out (to a point) when we took positive action and enforced controls and offered an amnesty on illegal ownership. Even after that we have gun (and grenade crime), not to your scale thankfully, but yes, we do still experience it.

None of your explanation of how guns are passed on is really relevant to gun control, or the lack of it. You start somewhere, you make it controlled and otherwise illegal – an imperfect beast to start for sure, and an imperfect beast forever, almost certainly. But you start somewhere, you gather, destroy and isolate – you make it a social stigma rather than a social tragedy. But I guess someone has got to really want to and have the power to make it start happening.

You have made a whole bunch of unsupported assumptions about what I think. I applauded this guy’s action, it was a positive thing for him, he saw his own light and took his own action and he certainly doesn’t deserve the nonsense you are spouting – you can take your own moral path with your own untraceable guns. His was a solitary act, it seems like that is what he wanted and realised it would be, it only seems to be you making it something other. If someone is in a dreamland then it certainly isn’t me or Steve Elliott.

I don’t know what you count as ‘gun violence on an epic scale’, but I have experienced gun violence which has left me with a thorough dislike of guns and folk who use them for no good reasons. Glad you think so much about our BBC coverage (we have a few other networks, too – shocking that, what next!). We also get some of your networks over hear – top notch they are …

… not to mention your wonderful dramas that says it as it is, or so we are told. But we can work that out without your patronising nonsense.

When was the last time you were in a hold-up or a shooting (1993 and 1982 for me)? But is that any more relevant than you judging our collective ability to take what we see, read, are told and experience about a problem your society has with guns? There is some revealing comment and opinion from you here, Ellewood.

Do you really believe that the outside world has no concept of the challenges your country faces, after all of these years and with all of the advantages of almost instant communication and relatively easy travel to your country, do you really think this is the case? Do you live in the bubble you think we all do?

There is 0% likelihood (you seem to like stats) that any of us think you will totally stop selling guns (where did you get the notion I did?). There is a 100% likelihood that you have moved to total and unmitigated arrogance in patronising me and all of us idiots, over here, across the pond, believing everything we see on TV.

I think that any frustration you might be suffering is because you have such a high opinion of your own views and such a low opinion of everyone else’s.

Who on earth has said anything about visiting there to lecture you about guns - we can do that from a keyboard, or so you seem to think? Folk travel to the USA for many reasons and it is only fair that they are allowed to express a view on your seemingly out-of-control gun culture. But again, your thoughts on this are very revealing, your population is what, 320 million, and you say you speak for all of them? Really? Are you sure you are not North Korean? Feel free to critique us, as you seem to be well versed in the art.

You speak about a constructive thread, but what have you offered that is constructive? I praised one of your countryman’s act of conscience (you do understand what that is, don’t you?), I responded to your comment about the finances – did you ignore the question mark and the words perhaps and maybe? This was it:

“Perhaps he thinks the money could find a better and needier home. Stupid? Maybe not.”

I really don’t want to encourage your hobby-horse any further, because I think there are many elements in the reasons why the USA have a self-admitted problem with guns (I’m using your President as your first-line spokesperson)

But whatever you chose to do, first copy and post in response (as I have) where I have been guilty of this remark from you: “. If you really just want to continue with the anti-US look how much better than we are than those silly americans who cant seem to stop people from being shot talk, then ill just go back to ignoring this thread and all the other ones like this that come up all the time." What sort of bloody nonsense is that?

But you are not ignoring anything are you? This comes across as a drunken rant with nothing but lies, inaccuracies and nonsense supporting it.

I’ll leave it at that, it deserved a full response as it was insulting, not just to me, but to everyone who tries to rationalise a problem we dread coming over here on a similar scale, and that is far nearer than you seem to think.

I seriously thought you were better than this.

 

I dont know why, perhaps you had an incorrect view of me? It could be you are looking at me through a prism of your life and experiences. I am honored in hindsight that you thought I was a better person than you think I am now. Hopefully you will think well of me again one day. I am actually very pro gun control, far more liberal than just about anyone, and very reasonable on the subject at least I have been told that in the past. Im sorry you have experienced gun violence, you are not alone in that. Lets just leave it at that.

I'm not going to go through all you typed, lets just say that I dont think I said anything incorrect. If something seemed unnecessarily insulting perhaps its the method in which we are communicating or the method in which I tend to communicate when not in person. Im sure if you were here our discussion would perfectly civil.

I will type up answers to this in the thing I will write for dennisboothstash if that sounds good to you. If you dont give a **** then I can just not send it to you. Ill send it instead of posting it. I will pick a couple points out and make sure I address them if that works for you. I will change it around a bit so its more of a question if there is anything else you would like me to address I will.

Do you really believe that your society and culture exists in a bubble that the rest of the world is incapable of coming to terms with gun issues, at least to some degree or another – maybe as poorly as American society seems to (if we are to believe your President and many senior leaders)?

Lets just change that to this

"Do you really believe that your society and culture exists in a bubble?"
"Do you really believe that the rest of the world is incapable of coming to terms with your gun issues?"

Maybe sometimes folk can be too close to the issues, but that is a tangent we don’t need to go down.

What? Hell no, that's a great tangent to go down. Lets change it to this,

"Do you believe that the fact that Americans are so close to this issue results in a clouded judgment on it?"

None of your explanation of how guns are passed on is really relevant to gun control, or the lack of it.

It is relevant, in fact it is one of the key factors in the difficulty of enacting gun control. I will explain why it is so. Lets change it to this.

"Explain how guns are passed on to new owners and why it is relevant to gun control, or the lack of it. "

But you start somewhere, you gather, destroy and isolate – you make it a social stigma rather than a social tragedy. But I guess someone has got to really want to and have the power to make it start happening.

Thats a hard one but I will tackle it. In fact that is probably pages and pages of explanation. It is what I intended on trying to explain to dennisboothstash at least in some respect. It touches on historical, social, and legal items.

"Explain the lack of social stigma to guns and the acceptability of gun violence as a social tragedy and the historical/legal/social systems that make the power to make change so difficult."

I responded to your comment about the finances – did you ignore the question mark and the words perhaps and maybe?

I dont think I saw the question mark. If you would like me to address the gun buy back system and the finances behind it I can do so.

"Fiances regarding gun buy backs and any relevant data on positive change from them."

 

That cant be real can it? It reminds me opening scene of the movie Drive

Edit: I looked it up and its an old car commercial for the Chevy Malibu. I guess the tag line was "... soon there will be a car you can't ignore" which was at the end of the commercial.

.

 

Ah that would explain it, made me laugh though!

 

I really don't know what to make of this, Ellewood. My surprise was the patronising nature of your argument; an argument you threw at me with no invitation. You constructed an argument (I can think of no other way to describe it) simply to put me and all of the other uneducated fools in our place (seemingly, in your opinion, anyone who has not lived in the USA, gone to prison there and experienced first-hand gun violence there are incapable of garnering information, having life experience and forming a credible opinion.)

You tell me you are not going to go through all I said (in response to all that you said) and then you commence to do just that, except you cherry-pick excerpts, reconstruct them wrongly and put your own take on them; I'm not particularly interested in that style of conversation, as too many question marks are missed.

I'm prepared to listen to (read) anyone's opinion or thoughts on any subject, but it becomes laboured when you decide to take the stance that other opinion (than American) is unworthy, unwelcome and unintelligent. I can't measure you, the man, but I can measure you the poster and this response of yours has a different tone to your previous two - albeit still lecturing.

 

I think you'll find that is what I said and what most folk said - other than that there is just a general shock at the scale and frequency of the events and the very clear inability of the worlds most powerful man to follow-up his own beliefs and do anything about it.

What utter nonsense; certainly some might broaden their thoughts with real-life experience, but surely you can see that there is plenty of opportunity to gather information (you are on of the means available) to form some form of meaningful opinion and ask questions to further that opinion. Are you both telling me that all of the adult population of America live in the constant shadow of gun outrage to the point where no-one else can possibly appreciate it?

I'll not go into the somewhat bigoted view you hold regarding life in general in America. I don't know if it is an American perspective, but I found some of Ellewood's comments borderline racist (in that there was a clear anti-Brit strand in the original rants) and that surprised me. Does the population of America really think these on-going massacres and the subsequent high-profile wringing of hands will not attract thought and comment? I think it is a very strange message we are getting from two prominent American posters.

 

Yours is a deeply rooted political point - you are/were a political activist, I believe? - it's a complex matter and one many Americans don't fully understand, let alone the rest of the world. If you want to explain that then good for you, I'm sure it will make interesting reading.

Steve Elliott simply listed his real-life experiences (what you bang the drum about):

"And so while I’d like to believe I’m not part and party to the gun violence that stains America, I can’t. My grandmother shot and killed herself with a gun, and a few years ago my father shot and didn’t quite kill himself with one. My stepbrother died in a murder-suicide with a gun, and the husband of one of my sister’s co-workers was killed in a mass shooting."

That doesn't give us the whole picture, far from it, but there is plenty of supporting material to help that along the way and at least allow us to voice an opinion - against your wishes maybe, but that is democracy and thank god for that, hey!

Steve explained, in a good way, how his use and love of guns had developed from youth up to the present day and he then explained how he had his own epiphany, how he realised he had in some small way perpetuated the gun culture that caused so many deaths - he realised that owning one, making it exist, added to the statistics that are regularly used to justify the gun culture:

"My gun is being used to argue against common-sense laws and policies that could reduce gun violence in America, arguments I find unconscionable. That’s what being a responsible gun owner means today – I’m responsible. I’ve been uneasy about that for a while now, and ashamed to admit it’s taken two more mass shootings for me to do anything about it."

He had an attack of conscience, he needed to do something and he did, here it is:

"That ended today. Today I disassembled my handgun, a 9mm Ruger, clamped the pieces in a vice and cut them in half with an angle grinder. I’m sending the proper paperwork into the state to report it destroyed.

None of us individually can stop gun violence in America, but as a responsible gun owner, I will no longer be used as a justification for doing nothing about it. Today I did what I could. Today there is‪#‎ONELESSGUN‬."

To this epiphany I responded:

"Hallelujah " a bit tongue in cheek as I am not particularly religious, but genuinely stated.

But you think Steve and myself are fools. Hmm.

 

I think a key element is that the 'right' to have a gun, seems to morph into having the 'right' to shoot and kill people.

 

Its smart marketing thats for sure.

 

It's ****ing nicked from a great Thunderbirds episode, that's what it is.

 

Never seen it but looking it up I would say that Team America also nicked it as well.

 

I lived in England for 40 years, the first 20 of those in 'Ull. I've lived the last 30 years in Cincinnati, and have spent plenty of time in many other parts of the US as well as in the rest of the world. I have dual GB/US citizenship. I understand your viewpoint entirely, as I understand Elle's. I have spent countless hours expounding exactly the same arguments as yours, to Americans from all types of background, and to this day I, like you, remain astounded at the almost universal response; not only from the unsophisticated hillbilly types, but also from highly sophisticated, highly educated types. These two stereotypes exist here in roughly the same proportions as over there.
While I have never have (and probably never will) owned or even handled a gun, what both Elle and I are telling you is that it will take an enormously long time, more than a lifetime, to change the US gun "culture". For sure, this president can do absolutely nothing about it without causing a civil war. And THAT is why the culture is the way it is. But please, don't try to twist my words: I AGREE WITH YOU (apart from the strange "somewhat bigoted" bit)!

 

If you can show me where you think I've tried to twist your words, and if it comes across that I have I will apologise as that was not my intention - but I don't think I have, I think I have responded to everything you have both said in an accurate and reasonable manner.

I have agreed, I have stated, I have never doubted that any change in your gun culture will be a long and tortured process; so you are preaching to the converted, not educating me or anyone else (is my guess).

Steve Elliott has made a small step and he has been called a fool for doing it and I think that's poor. If it takes small steps to gain a momentum of public outrage then so-be-it; but surely you can both see that everything must start somewhere? If that means taking small steps on many fronts then start the process.

It was an American who was instrumental in decommissioning the arms of the terrorist forces in Northern Ireland, arms that had probably come from the USA in the first place (this is well documented); so you might imagine that your lack of effective gun controls do impact on others and that they might take an interest in what you do or do not do about it. Ellewood ranting that it has nothing to do with us is piss-poor, as it does when we can hear the rumblings of unrest in the Province once again.

 

Do you consider the arguments of the other side? As a gun owner, and one who has used one in self-defense (didn't have to fire it, thank God, only point it), I oppose most of the gun control measures I see proposed, mostly because they are well-meaning but naive in that they will make matters worse. Perhaps those who are bewildered by American opposition to gun control should consider that gun ownership has always been high in the US, such that the increase in gun violence should logically be attributed to something else. Like a decaying culture, perhaps? And in that the US isn't alone.

 

I'm not going any further on this one. Just FYI, to this day I still present the British view, just like yours, every time this debate pops up with an American. I understand the American viewpoint, but I disagree with it. Just as he disagrees with mine.
I would still like an explanation of your statement: "I'll not go into the somewhat bigoted view you hold regarding life in general in America." You've got me there!