You make some decent points, and I certainly appreciate you making the effort to actually debate and argue a point well enough, but I'll repeat the same question I asked KIO - how exactly has your situation improved because of the last five years of Tory led government? And how bad was it really under Labour before the global financial meltdown of 2008 when the banks were bailed out of the public purse? I dunno, I seem to remember it being a hell of a lot better than this myself. Oh, and as for the bit in bold, it's not one of your decent points, rather a reference to me asking for debate without the bullshit Tory rhetoric
Couldn't India support/fund PACS? I do think India should abandon it's space program and focus on it's domestic welfare and I also think that we should axe trident and foreign aid. Then with that money we should focus more on future prosperity in our country. We can't compete to make the basics so lets gear ourselves to be a bit more cutting edge and invest in a future for the country. Because some day we will surely collapse, as net importers and with so little produced to offer the outside world. It's a massive dept pyramid that will collapse on some poor generation, but the political classes Labour and tory will all swan off with their rich friends somewhere nice to do it all again. Bah!
I'm genuinely disheartened when people don't view International Aid as necessary. I think there's an awful lot to be said for helping less developed countries get to an economic situation where parents don't need to send their children off to work, and the children aren't going to die of dysentery or disease for example. People generally don't want to have 10+ children if they can help it, and it tends to be only in places where children provide labour power or wage-earnings, or where children are likely to die in large numbers that you have birth-rates up at this level. It takes a bit of time to catch up, but as living standards rise, the number of children each family has declines to replacement or just below replacement levels. As these issues with over-population, education, and general inequality are addressed through supporting less developed countries, our general standard of life will be improved as they need less and less of our assistance. Better to support them now and get them to a point where they can support themselves than 'axe' the aid and have them face mass emigration, war, famine, disease, resulting in de-stabilising the global community (not to mention leaving us 'at risk' of an influx of 'swarms' of immigrants - which I'm sure a lot of the people in favour of axing aid absolutely dread!).
I was making an argument for Tory voters of which my father is one. I don't vote for either as I don't honestly see any real difference and don't like either. Corbyn may ultimately change that. But under Blair et al they were only Labour by name, they were no better than the Tories on so many issues that true Labour might have had more morals over. It is because new Labour moved to the right that KIO and I would have seen little difference in new Labour and the Tories now. And yes it was certainly no worse before 2008 than now. The real question was who would you trust more with the economy, because the crash happened under Labours watch I think it's quite natural that people would trust the only other likely electable party more (Rightly or wrongly) Some older voters again would probably say same old Labour spend and bankrupt! Just to add, Labour also backed the route of austerity so once again I didn't see much difference. Again this is why I like Corbyn, he will bring some issues to the fore that neither party formally would and things will be better for that. Sorry KIO, for you I think my sense talking hath ended Bah!
I take your point but I would like to actually help not just former members of the empire or countries with oil or have had a disaster. I would prefer us to inwardly invest in sciences that would help make the world a better place. Things like the GMO crops that will grow in more hostile places, it we could get our house in order then I would like to believe that we could then afford to be vastly more philanthropic in looking after the rest of the world. This is why I would do away with trident and foreign aid, why I think that the public sector in places needs trimming (Though in some places like frontline nursing staff, bolstering) , too many middle managers and plenty of incompetence. (Some of the stuff going on in SLT at her indoors school makes your blood boil!) But if we can as a country operate in surplus and remove debt then that surplus could be used to help everyone. Whilst that's what I'd like, I know it is very unlikely to come to be, because even if we got to that point, all the science would be done by private firms who would answer to shareholders and nothing would go out free. It is a broken old world ain't it! Bah!
The perfidious free-market is to blame, comrade. We must start by nipping this horrifying TTIP in the bud!
So first off you're saying things are no better than they were under the pre-crash Labour government, regardless of how far to the centre-right they had moved over the 13 years. For the record I can't disagree that they had become almost undistinguishable from the Tory party for the past few years - especially if you ignore all the nasty **** that's being chucked at the poor and vulnerable, you know the sort of stuff that doesn't bat the eyelid of MOST of the "I'm alright Jack" Tory voter. Secondly that Labour is now in the past (for now), we are talking about a Corbyn led opposition and if you're really suggesting you can't tell the difference between the two parties right now I'd suggest you're trying to pull my plonker. Thirdly anyone who actually believes the previous Labour government was to blame for the global financial crisis in my opinion falls into the first category of my post a few pages back that apparently ruffled a few feathers. Just because it was under their watch doesn't mean they were to blame, much as the Iraq war shouldn't be blamed solely on Blair and Labour because if the Tories were in government at the time then they would have done 100%, exactly the same. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me something, ANYTHING that actually improved in the past five years? Even their big election winning promises on reducing borrowing and slashing immigration have been missed massively - both have gone up massively - why are they not being held to account and why do people believe anything they say?? This crap Teresa May is coming out with now is the same crap they sold people five years ago, and have been banging on about ever since, but they failed then so why do people think they are actually going to carry out any of these promises? The NHS is on it's knees - 7,000 nurses will be lost by next year, and thousands more police officers will be gone as well. What has got better? I just don't get it.
In peace. Mag here. Best of luck next weekend. You may get something, as we are so awful for 45 mins every game. Just a thought, saw the thread title, football and politics should never mix. Football should be the great equaliser, no matter your background or political leaning, you are united in the love of your team. Pretty inflammatory title I thought. But hey ho, each to his own..
Our struggle against the bourgeois elite should span every aspect of our lives until The Revolution, comrade. Question not why our political discussion should appear on this, a humble football forum, but instead ask why you renege on your obligation to chastise the establishment at every opportunity you have.
You did realise that the OP was ironic? My view is that the crash under Labour was massively over hyped and almost all a result of the banks. Labour shot themselves in the foot when they ditched Blair and condemned themselves to a generation out of office. Corbyn is even worse than I feared, did you see him read the autocue message at conference? What sort of nincompoop gets to lead a major political party and not realise that. FFS the messages are in a different colour from the text!
If you're a family on the National Living Wage, here's where you can afford David Cameron's new starter homes please log in to view this image
I got scared today when Cam-moron said the Tories aim to finish what they've started! They've started to destroy the country, so by 2020 there will be no country left!
I keep promising myself that I will leave this thread alone but I have to say spot on General. As a business we have helped 4 people get on the property ladder in the last 5 years and employed 3 more people.
OK tmc I will bite. In no particular order. More people in employment Food relatively cheaper Fuel relatively cheaper A11 dualling Withdrawal from Afghanistan Norwich city squad More kids graduating Higher GCSE and a level grades UK not involved in any wars on the ground No major terrorist attacks on the UK Green energy generation up The Norwich lanes regeneration The UK financial sector does not appear to be about to melt down Increased funding in real and absolute terms in the NHS New science park about to open by the uea My daughter has a new park to play in Whymondham has an upgraded leisure centre I am sure there are plenty of other local and national things which are good or getting better but others can add them if they choose. It is so easy to sit back and complain about every single thing and forget about how good things really are here. Is there anywhere else in the world you think is vastly superior tmc? Or would you only be happy on animal farm? Yes things could be better but complaining and sniping don't really solve much do they? Just dismissing the arguments of anyone with the temerity to hold an opposing view and then badgering and taunting them until they ignore you or quit the forum really is not much of a win unless your ego is so fragile that you need to show yourself to be correct in all things. You are clearly someone with a valid opinion who cares deeply about his politics but it would be nice if you could just stop badgering people until they lose the will to live.
I haven't lost the will to live but for a football forum it's all a bit heavy at times. I don't dislike TMC I just got bored of it. I found it especially odd when he decided to jump to the Ched Evans thread to carry it on though.
As a first time user of the ignore button thing it did work a treat though. I was surprised how good it was.
This is my point CT. It simply isn't. On any measure you pick it is as good as it ever was. We are all living longer. We are mostly healthier. There are treatments saving lives today that didn't exist 5 years ago. We have more doctors and more nurses than 5 years ago. We are as previously posted investing more in the NHS than we ever have Yes the service is stretched as we have the temerity to live longer and longer and so there is more pressure from an ageing population. Go into any gp waiting room and you can bet it will be full of the over 70s. This would not have been the case back in the 70s as bluntly the majority of that demographic would be dead. The NHS is a bit of a victim of its own success. Like any service it could be improved but successive governments both labour and Tory have invested hugely to make it as good as they possibly can. People seem to hark back to some golden age for the NHS but I just don't see things as being better in the past compared with today. I was actually in the James Paget yesterday and whilst I had to wait to be seen for an hour or so the care I received there was excellent from two young but hugely competent doctors. In Norwich we have an excellent hospital which is a massive improvement on the institution it replaced. How is this not better? Things can always improve but let's not kid ourselves that things were better in the past. Ask yourself would you rather be ill now or in 1980. I know which is choose to maximise my survival chances.
