Match Day Thread PL: Liverpool v West Ham United

Irony.




I know, you meant it.

 

Pretty much agree with MITO's scale + opinion here. For me a world class player is one who would get in to or change 'any' side in the world - Suarez, Iniesta etc. It only gets complicated when you consider how the 'world class' Silva would get into the Barca side for EG. A 'very good' player is capable of much without being among the best in the world - say a Schweinsteiger, Mata sort of player. Indeed very few players reach this level. A 'good' player is one consistently capable of positively affecting their side's performances - good example would be Clyne right now. An average PL player lacks the consistency to compete at the top level despite occasional performances - say Cleverley, Allen etc. A below average PL player is one suited best to a 11-20 placed side - the Victor Anichebes of this cruel, merciless world.

For us -

World class - nah
Very good - Coutinho, Sturridge (could be joined by Sakho, Firmino)
Good - Benteke, Firmino, Milner, Clyne, Sakho, Can, Mignolet
Average PL player - Skrtel, Gomez, Lovren, Flanagan, Allen, Moreno (close to good)
Below average PL - Ibe (now), Ings

When you look at what you need to get 3rd/4th (our aim surely) you could compare to Arsenal or United

World class - Sanchez
Very good - Cazorla, Koscielny, Ramsey, Ozil (just below)
Good - Monreal, Mertesacker, Bellerin, Coquelin, Walcott, OXO, Gibbs, Ospina
Average PL player - Arteta, Gabriel, Chambers, Debuchy
Below Average PL - Flamini

World class - De Gea
Very good - Rooney (past year or two, otherwise world class), Mata, Schweinsteiger, Carrick,
Good - Herrera, Hernandez (form is temporary...), Smalling, Shaw, Darmain, Fellaini, Valencia, Young
Average PL player - Depay (so far), Jones, Evans, Romero
Below Average PL - Blackett, Wilson etc

Chelsea won last year with this IMO

World class - Hazard, Matic, Terry, Azpilicueta, Courtois
Very good - Ivanovic, Fabregas, Costa (both close), Willian
Good - Oscar, Cahill, Remy, Zouma, Filipe Luis
Average PL player - Mikel
Below Average PL - Don't have any

 

seems some will debtate and some just want to have a go...

 

I think MITO's scale and my thoughts behind system and tactics are at direct opposites. I am of the opinion that you can be very successful with a group of players as long as you get the system and tactics right, I don't think you need any so called World Class players in the team to be successful just players who are capable of doing the job and who are able to apply themselves to the system and understand the tactics. The system and tactics elevates the players so that they appear to be better but take them out of the system and they may well fail.

 

I think that's true as well in fairness... don't think they're mutually exclusive. Think players have a level of talent and mentality that you can assess but these players can be more or less useful depending on the system they work within.

 

All totally subjective.

Labelling players is entirely subjective anyway. Personally I think to call any player holding a place in a team in the top half of the PL "below average" is absurd.

 

I very much think that it's where we've gone wrong under Rodgers he's chopped and changed his system so much and seems to overreact when it goes wrong or he sticks with a temporory fix instead of dealing with the actual problem. I think we're in a good place at the moment and if the players can understand the system and stick to it through good and bad we'll do very well. But we have to fight hard for it and for each other on the pitch something which has most definately been lacking.

Those players at the top end of MITO's system will then elevate us to something more than some think we deserve.

 

Yes he's changed things far too much and certainly the most alarming thing last year was our mental weakness... the lack of fight or togetherness.

Hard to know going forward what type of football we're aiming to play either with this summer's recruitment.

Think good players will flourish within the right system... the best players dictate that system and drag everyone else forward.

 

Yes and no..
A good player in a good system will reap benefits..
A better player in a good system will reap more!

 

I agree with both of you as you are wise heads.

Individual rating of players in a team sport only ever gets you to the point where a players is either bought or not bought etc.

I also agree with this.

Its just a means of saying some players are just never going to be all that and honestly.... when you are there with 5/6 players who i'd call average in your team none of them are really going to make the difference to you are they?

I mean nobody is going to say oh joe allen he'll get us 10 goals this year if we just play him... same type of scenario for some players we have bought... if you were 1-0 down to chelsea in the SF of a league cup would you turn to aspas to dig you out of the hole?

It is a team sport and players can all have their place... just i think some people was to call some of our players either total muck or absolute worldies when they are niether.

Sahko v lovern is a classic one there.... one is made out to be the greatest in the world and the other awful... or say allen v can..... can is a good young player with a lot of potential but he's made out to be a top top player already whereas allen is bang average

if one wants it more they will succeed. If one get along better with the team dynamic or is willing to sacrifice for the team they get along better

 

Possibly but my point is more about the right group of players in a system being more important then 1 or 2 worldies.

 

Even though I know you were fishing Allen is a good talking point, rewind to his Swansea career and he was a very important player in a system that worked very well. At this point he has struggled to adapt because we have not had a system that suits him as a player or we have changed so that the system simply didn't suit him. Rodgers bought him for a reason as he fit into his idea he then abandoned the idea.

 

Can't see the gleam in your eye so I'm not sure how sarky you're being.

I agree with this.
(Though you do have previous when it comes to calling players muck)

 

Agreed.

 

One view is that.

Another is he is merely after moving from at best a mid table club having being important as they rose from championship but having followed his manager to lfc has found he hasn't the talent to compete across the range of games lfc expect him to... I.e. he's expect to compete v Utd here whereas at Swansea they didn't care if Utd thumped them as long as they beat say hull etc.

Looking suited to mid table club and looking at best a squad filler at a club with more resources and competition.

It does mean on his day he won't play well neither does it mean lfc can use him and get the same week in and week out from him.

 

I'm not being sarky with either of you.

When I call a player muck (like ngog or balotelli) I'm usually proved right.

 

Both good points. Both entirely plausible scenarios. Both taking opposing views.
Which is why I think it's wrong to label players lightly.

 

Master Yoda?

Yeah there will always be different opinions a counter argument would be though that Wales play him in a similar position and role that he played at Swansea and he's an integral part of what is turning out to be a very successful campaign.

#nojinx

 

true and i wish them well... but most international games are not at the level of playing a team like swansea. Wales biggest game was v belgium but they also had to play isreal and andorra and bosnia.. so the level is very varied.... same story for england.

 

I don't label them lightly at all.