Just heard on the radio that 58% of university graduates end up in non graduate jobs, just as we hit Blair's target of 50% of 18 year olds going to Uni. At the same time the building industry has a chronic shortage of skilled workers (attempting to fill with foreigners) and builders are turning away work. When there is a massive housing shortage. So we have a situation where large numbers of young people spend three plus years racking up a debt which most will never repay (thus adding it to the national debt), a dumbed down £ chasing university system, and loads of people with frustrated ambitions who will be lucky to end up as the ticket man at Fulham Broadway Station denying other people who might actually really want a job like that the opportunity. The solution according to some university related talking head, is for employers to create more graduate level jobs. Presumably even if there is no business need for them. Cretins. An entirely predictable Blair initiated, Cameron pursued policy disaster which we will live with the consequences of for decades.
So with you Stan. There so many people that are not suited to academia (I include myself in that bracket before anyone goes off on one) that get told that they should go to uni. Not everyone learns in the same way.
Said the other day It's was a evil brilliant strategy Make an industry out of education I am willing to put forward that a massively high percentage of 15-20 years olds have little idea what they would like to do. Couple that with an inert UK culture you have a cake on slow cook that we are getting an early taste of Starting a job having learnt very little at uni in catering a person can expect to work long hours for little pay. No point in earning too much because you will need to start paying back your student loans. Catering is the future because guess what England is suddenly the worlds centre of food I challenge anyone on here to say that in the UK a new food outlet hasn't opened recently near them gastric pubs warming up frozen ready meals made in factory units by people imported ... It's brilliant To date in my field I have yet to met a graduate who knows anything about design . It's truly shocking
University has become a choice, regardless of intellect. You can be, for want of a nicer word, thick, and go and do three years somewhere crap but it's the best three years of your life so I don't blame kids for wanting to do it. There are far too many unis and courses. The resources for tertiary education could be focused on a smaller number of students. I'm not saying just the absolute elite but there's no need for more than the brightest 25% to go to uni. Could be a lot more affordable for the top students too. Bloody good laugh though when you get there.
No different here in Oz. Now you have to go to uni, just to bust a pimple. It keeps the students off the dole queues for another couple of years while they pay a shed load to learn little ( in most cases ) At the end of it, you may get the opportunity to earn far less than those who filled those roles in years go by. It's happening in all areas ................. over supply of trades, academics and alike, plus the influx of cheap overseas labour, guarantees lower earning capacity. Years ago, a typical builder / tradie, quote breakdown read as such ................ 1/3 materials, 1/3 labour & 1/3 profit margin, which would cover for insurances, licences, wet days, sickness, etc Nowadays, the materials in most cases are the biggest costs, labour is less and there is basically no profit margin................ you build it within the time allowance and hope you don't come across onsite issues and unforeseen add-ons.
I didn't go to university but worked in graphic design for 20+ years. I went in as a junior and learnt the trade. When I managed teams I used to have to interview and most had degrees. A great deal of them were useless with no talent and the majority couldn't even draw. One day I went to an agency looking for a new job and they wouldn't see me as I didn't have a degree!
The only thing I felt bad about when 'agreeing' with my boy that he shouldn't go to Uni this time last year (he had the grades to go to an identikit 'new' uni, or study something that was useless at a better old uni) on the grounds that he had no interest in study and would simply rack up debt for nothing and would probably be kicked out anyway, was the fun he would miss. As it happens a year later he has got a job which pays more than most new graduate jobs, and I struggle to see how he could spend any more time out of work stoned/drunk/shagging/at drum 'n bass gigs, often, I suspect, simultaneously. If it was nearly free, like the old days, he would have probably gone, but I decided I was not going to shell out for a complete waste of time. He might go some time in the future, but I reckon having cash in his pocket will outweigh that. At the same time a mate's daughter (nice girl) is just about to go to a place I'd never heard of (Moreton in the Marsh Uni, or Driffield Uni or something like that) to study something she has no aptitude in because she 'wants a job which will give her a car and a laptop'. Oh, the vaulting ambition of youth. What a miserable world we have created for them.
Blair did inspire, as you say Stan, for ostensibly commendable reason but it's proving to be impractical. To be fair to Cameron, I don't think he is pursuing this. His government are bringing back apprenticeships and focusing students at A levels on traditional core subjects rather than the drama, media studies-type subjects.
My sister did something similar. Left school at 16, did a year of a college course then out to work. Younger than me, earning a bit more for now and without the uni debt. I had a great four years and it's opened up a career path that I wouldn't have had without a degree, but it's not for everyone. As you say, it's not like youngsters can't have a good time without uni. Your boy may have his own place, car etc. at 21 with three years of experience when his mates are leaving Bolton Poly with a 2:2 in African Studies.
Err, they've just taken the cap off numbers of university places, removing the last vestige of competitiveness in getting a university place (of course places on top courses at top Unis remain competitive, but you are behind the queue formed by Chinese kids paying even more extortionate fees). So everyone can go to Driffield Uni, as long as they have signed the register at school until they were 18. This is all in aid of reducing/eliminating Government subsidy for higher education. I wasn't trying to make a party political point Goldie. I appreciate your support for Cameron and given the state of the opposition we will be with him and his ilk for many years, but they are not always right. It's a bizarrely populist policy, but a colossal **** up as well. When you have kids the same age as mine (15 and 19) this stuff is incredibly personal.
I'm no supporter of Blair, God knows, but I think it was an attempt to give all youngsters the chance to study at university and broaden their horizon, which had previously been largely the privilege of kids with middle class, often well-heeled parents. Almost a right of passage. So the motivation was right, mo, but there's a huge cost which now falls on the kids and is something of a poison chalice. If you go for a degree, you have to ask yourself how useful will it be, and what will I use it for?
Blair did it to fudge the employment numbers. Don't care what spin Alistair (I was never elected but ran/ruined the country) Campbell put on it. That whole bunch were just sound bites and guff.
I see where you're coming from but I think if that was his thinking, the best option would have been to greater subsidise existing courses to make it a more viable option for poor kids financially. On top of this, more/better grants or cheap loans for living costs. It's a pretty genius move to cut unemployment, as is upping the school leaving age to 18. Did that happen or is it going to? Instantly take a lot of barely educated teenagers away from the dole queue and into a classroom they don't want to be in at the expense of focusing on those who do.
I don't claim to be an education expert (!), so I hear what you say about removing the cap. I imagine the demand for less popular universities will find its own level based on students evaluation of the benefit/debt ratio. I'm not blinkered about Cameron, and the thought of a one-party Tory state with the rise of the unacceptable right wing, is frankly horrifying. I have, however, always had a healthy respect for Michael Gove and thought he was pushing the right buttons when he was Education Minister. He's strident so upset a lot of teachers and was thus moved on, but his policies of focusing on discipline to create a learning platform and core subjects remains
The grants had historically been good for less well-off students. This was part of the problem. When there was a rush to further education, the system creaked until grants changed to loans and eye-watering debt which is where we are now. I'm sure you're right about the associated benefits of reducing unemployment figures - whether it was the cart or the horse depends on the viewer's degree of cynicism!
Agree, it should be about equality of opportunity in the competition for a worthwhile place at Uni, not expanding the number of places available to allow everyone to go. Which means high quality state schools for all, another total **** up. I am the product of an elitist system - I got into the last year of state grammar school education which only took 25% of 11 year olds. To the best of my recollection most of these still left school at 16, and of those who stayed until 18 only a tiny minority went to university - about 7% of 18 year olds I think. For those of us trying to get there our teachers continually drummed into us what a privilege it was. I don't think it was a 'fair' system, but it produced high quality results - for a few of us. Only 68,000 people graduated in 1980 (a couple of years before I did), in 2011 350,000 did so I'm guessing there must be 500k now. It's ridiculous, this sense of entitlement to something unearned.
Difficult one this one, IMO this wasn't Blair initiated, this started with the upgrade of Polytechnics to Universities. No offence to those that studied at some fantastic establishments but it was a dumbing down. Simply gaining entry to University had been seen as an enormous achievement - certainly within my circles. It was undoubtedly heavily weighted in favour of Public and Grammar schools, I can say this by the fact that during my time at the comprehensive school I attended, not one person went to University, this cant have been right, especially when thinking that many of my peers have gone on to take positions ranging from Aeronautics and Astronautics physician at NASA to Directors in Local Govt. etc. The problem that the UK is facing is more or less the same that Spain has faced for the past 20 years which for them, stemmed from the death of Generalissimo Franco. Up until his death, attending University was something for the very privileged few, it was only natural thereafter that parents who had not had the opportunity of a decent education would then do everything in their power to give their children that chance. I, myself, son of Spanish parents, remember only too well that "my plan" at 13 was already to attend Southampton University to study law!! 13 years old!! The "Golden Age" in Spain coincided of course with the development of Spain from Third World to European Power with an abundance of opportunities for this generation. However, it then became the norm for literally EVERYONE to go to University and as the courses were not free parents were doing everything within their power to get their children to go. Within my own family I have a cousin who took 11 years to complete a 5 year course - of what value could that degree have been? What we can also see now is that the expectation levels have gone through the roof with these same graduates and the levels of talent and dedication have not risen exponentially - in fact I'd call most of them within my own experience as lazy and already looking for promotion and their rightful higher salary. Furthermore, not nearly dedicated, knowledgeable or productive as those that have risen through the ranks over years. We have become fixated on titles, if we look at LinkedIn, nearly everyone has some kind of fancy title - myself included, why, not everyone can be a Manager or Head of something can they? I know I always go on about how wonderful Denmark is but we could really learn from their society - when at a social gatherings with strangers it is extremely rare that anyone asks you what you do for a living, I'm one that is asked once in a while due to my Cockney Danish accent and when I tell them where I work, it immediately puts them off as the company I work for is held as some kind of elitist cult group - the probable total opposite of the "prestige" we would consider it to be in GB, US or Spain for ex. As always the balance has to be a fine one between providing opportunity for all (and an understanding to what that means)and thereafter making that opportunity worthwhile and other professions equally worthwhile. One thing is for sure - We are getting more and more people from all walks of life going through Higher Education yet the talent pool is dwindling - strange. OK - I'm with you, blame it on Blair and Cameron
