Religion - the most dangerous subject known to man This is what we would call "off-topic". You may say that being a sports forum, and specifically a footballing forum, a topic on this subject is a step over the "off-topic" labelling. However, given some of our past subjects, and the diversity us Watford fans seem to exhibit, I thought it would be good to generate some debate. If you had asked me 5 or 6 years ago, "do you believe in religion", I would have answered "NO" without any hesitation. At school, RE lessons consisted of throwing pencil cases at the suspended ceiling to knock the tiles down, shouting, writing the most ridiculous answers in exams and drawing phallic images on class-mates arms. Religion is a dangerous subject. Everybody likes to let other people know what they believe in. This becomes problematic when the person has strong opinions (or is narrow minded!). This is generally where the modern day problem with religion lies. Religion is the most important thing in the world. It brings people together and encourages people to do the "right thing". But it also separates people, communities, countries. Religion makes people do the most awful things (the recent Islam v Christian battles in Egypt, honour killings etc.). Just look at the "war on terror". By all accounts, it is the Western World's fight against radical Islam. It is incredible how one persons belief's can have such a profound effect on people I like the general ideas of religion; encouraging people to help each other, treating people well, learning to be yourself, and this is why I would encourage my children to listen in their RE lessons. As I have grown older and "wiser", the concept of religion has become more significant to me. At the same time as dismissing a "god", I would believe things happened for a reason - Karma (admittedly a Buddhist principle), fate etc. If I believe these things happen, how are they controlled? Surely by some "higher being" or "divine force"? After many years of thinking about this, I have now come to the conclusion that religion is just a belief. It is a way of answering the unanswerable. The subject has become more significant to me recently. In 7 months time, I will be married in a Catholic Church. I feel a little guilty that I will be committing my life to the Catholic Church, when I haven't once (knowingly and intentionally) followed its principles. My fiancée is Catholic, hence the Catholic ceremony, but should this mean I become a Catholic? The vows that I will be saying, will they be meaningless and redundant because I don't follow the church? I feel marriage has lost its way a bit over the years, and I will be partly responsible for this. But, I haven't ruled out the possibility of following Catholicism. I am keeping my door wide open. At present, I don't follow any specific religion, or believe in a specific "higher being", but I do believe there is something out there which has over-riding control of us. If anything, it is a way of covering the fear of what I don't know - namely, death. For me, religion isn't about following one persons principles. It isn't about forcing my beliefs on to someone else. It isn't about proving someone elseâs beliefs are wrong. It is about doing the right thing, being positive and hoping that I don't die! What are your feelings on religion? Do you follow any? NB: sorry for the potentially heavy topic on an otherwise light hearted forum.
I think I have a rather simplistic view of religion. It is a good idea, but it is taken far too seriously and some of the acts performed under the name of 'religion' are barbaric. There is an 'idea' of what religion should be but people have their own takes on very similar principles, thus creating so many, with very differing rules. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having your own ideas and beliefs, but feel you should not push them onto others. Of course, state why you believe this is correct and allow people to make their own decisions - unfortunately I find religions are too 'preachy' Not sure if anyone has seen the film Dogma... A passage in it almost sums it up for me; "He (God) still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the **** that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it. Having beliefs isn't good? I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant." I have my own ideas.... I believe in a higher power (sometimes), I sometimes find myself praying to God (generally for good things to happen to people I know), and I think a lot of good work is done through religion - it helps a lot of people. But once it starts becoming dictatorial rather than supportive, I begin to lose any affinity with it!
I have an even simpler view of religion. We'll all find out in a few years, and I like surprises. My philosophy on life is equally simple. Live your life doing what you genuinely believe is the right thing as far as humanly possible. If there is an upstairs and what you did wasn't good enough, you were probably doomed anyway.
Pretty much how I try and live my life NNW.... treat people how you would like to be treated! A pretty simple philosophy really.
I have an even simpler view: it's all bollocks. 'Religious' people fall into 3 camps: 1 - those who have been brought up in the religion, and it is so deeply engrained that even otherwise rational people find it hard to shake off. 2 - those who have 'found god' or been introduced to god at a point in their lives when they are desperate, deeply troubled and searching for 'something'. 3 - those who have studied the scriptures and religious texts, and have come to the conclusion that there is truth in it. These people are also known as 'simpletons' or half-wits'.
Personally I have no belief in a higher power or 'God' (not I still use the capital G just in case, no reason not to hedge your bets!) I think although the philosophy behind religion is generally sound and usually the same no matter which religion you follow it is the use of religion by those in charge who use it as a tool for personal gain and control that infuriates me. Also I hate being accosted in the street by a stranger by someone who feels the need to shout in my face "Don't try to tell me that God is dead!" Quite frankly I didn't want to say anything to her at all. However, it is equally wrong of me to try and disprove somebody's faith and if they find personal solace in their belief in something then nobody should have a problem with that. It remains the unfortunate truth that there would have been much less war, death and destruction through history if religion didn't exist.
That's a bit of a generic argument though Harrow. Replace "religion/religious/the religion" and "god" with the name of any football town, and you'll see what I mean.
I totally agree! However, the point is your average Hornet doesn't think that being a loyal fan will get him into heaven, or that GT's views on homosexuality or birth control should be taken as infallible, or that Luton fans should be exterminated... OK, maybe it falls down a bit with the last one, but you get my drift!
Everyone has a view of course, and few of them bother me unless they appear to be ruining people's lives. For what it's worth my own view of religion was summed up pretty well by Karl Marx... "the opium of the people". Over and over, throughout history, religions have inspired war, greed and intolerance. People are perfectly capable of treating each other well without them and once their lives have been lived they return to dust. We might like there to be some mystical force behind the universe or something to happen after we die but I'd say both are figments of our imagination.
Why wish them bad things? Supporting L***n is as big a punishment as I can think of at this point in time.
I think the whole idea of doing something "in the name of God" is an excuse used far too much to justify barbaric atrocities which would otherwise appal and disgust all. I do not have faith, nor do I believe in a God. I am much like Tom Hanks in Angels and Demons, I do not believe in God but I am open to the possibility of there being a God. I would not take Pascal's wager and bet either for or against as there are arguments for both. Also I am an Empiricist who likes to believe in things i can touch, see, and smell and have evidence for given to me by my senses. In argument for, you have the argument that science cannot explain everything (yet) and even the big bang had to be created by something, this might be the God particle, or it might be a higher being. Either way, without it we have whatâs called infinite regress, which is when you start at point Z and work back to point A. There has to be a point A otherwise we would not be here. God might just be a convenient way of explaining this and giving meaning to our lives. We wonât know until we die. Arguments against are numerous, but that may just be personal opinion and awareness, and include the existence of evil; if God is a Benevolent God and an Omnipotent God then why does He allow these to exist? Is it because he is powerless to stop them? Or could it be a test to enable us to achieve spiritual enlightenment and closeness to God- Irenaen Theodicy. Or is it that Humans are weak and have been lead astray by Satan and this allows Him to show His love for us- Augustinian Theodicy. The Bible is (according to most Catholics) the direct word of God given through the mouths of the Disciples; however there are flaws with this. In Genesis it is said that God created Adam and Eve and they then have two children; Cain and Able. Then it states that Cain and Able both marry and have children. The problem here is that either God is allowing incest and adultery or the Bible is not the direct word of God and just another book written by humans. Therefore there is a problem with the word of God. I also question that the church has the power to do Godâs will because it is said that we humans can not know God, and the only way to get to know him is through Jesus, which is why Jesus was sent to earth as a Man; so that humans can get to know God. This however, is just based on Christianity and has no true reference to any other religion. Buddhists for instance believe in the Four Nobel Truths which are simply 1. Suffering does exist 2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires 3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases 4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path The 8 fold path is what Buddhists believe you must follow in order to reach enlightenment and achieve Nirvana. Buddhists do not believe in a God, but a teacher called Buddha, who gave these lessons for us all to live by. Then you have the extreme is Islam, which in my views is a racist on some levels. It teaches that Allah wishes his people to convert âInfidelsâ to Islam and that if they will not be converted then they must die. I am not saying that Christianity and other religions are perfect as we know that The Vatican has ordered the killing of plenty in their time, including the Templar Knights to give us Friday 13th. You also have to remember that the conflict in Israel is down to religion as many other wars have been. In my eyes religion will never be a good thing; it is an excuse for elitism and raising money in some situations too. However, Faith is a different thing. You have the right to believe anything you want and practice it within the laws of the country you are in.
Wow Dan !! want to rep it ! but wont let me! Great post I agree with you , there may or may not be a higher being!,there may or may not be life after death! Live the life you have been given to the full and worry about the next stage later.....if you need to I believe in my family and my watford fc family anything else is a distraction ps believe in alcohol too!
Thanks Norway, dont get me started on the afterlife, thats another matter. But i have to agree with you there.
Religion takes on many forms, and like anything else, anyone who takes it to the extreme becomes dangerous. However, a normal human being who feels 'religious' is not dangerous, just trying to do their best and to try and understand the difference between right and wrong. From my own standpoint, being Jewish, i am able to separate the 'religious' part of my religion, ie. the God bit, which i don't really have any faith in, compared to the way of life side of it, which is far easier to follow, and to instil in my children. We have traditions, and to a certain extent, we follow them. As regards being Kosher, for example, Mr H and i decided that we would 'up our game' when the kids were born, to teach them the 'right' way, and then if they let it lapse, they'd only go to the level we'd been at before, therefore not losing anything. As it happens, at the moment, my son has gone a stage more religious than Mr H and i, though maybe that's just a phase, we shall see. But we showed them what our religion is about, so that they can then make an informed choice when they're old enough. So, my view? Religion can be a good thing, as far as social values are concerned. Belief in God, should you wish to envelope it, is not a bad thing, it's just not for me anymore, but tradition is important to me, and perhaps because in this country I am part of a minority group, i feel it's important to pass that tradition onto my children.
I believe in traditions being upheld and children being taught about their history! So good call H I guess I`m still making up my mind on the religion issue!
Some might argue that 'feeling religious' is far from normal! From my point of view, religions have 'had their day' and a fairly manky day it was too considering the treachery, murder, mayhem and violence that has been perpetrated in its name - no matter what particular brand. As most religions have their roots in the dawn of humanity there was, without a doubt, the need for them - to create a set of rules for the semi-savages of the day to follow in order to attempt to create a decent society of sorts. My how they all failed is all I can say. For me, the idea of a god or a supreme being is simply a man-made concept, one that never really existed, was convenient at the time but proved to be a failure. It's time to move on.
Strange wording there BBW - surely even the most bored teenager would recognise that religion does exist? Perhaps you meant 'God'
Hmmmm - the term "religion" if you will pardon the phrase covers a multitude of sins. There is evidence going back to pre-history that the emerging "humans" seemed to need a "totem" or token to draw them together - hence the building of Stonehenge type monuments around the globe. It used to be thought that "religion" as such followed people gathering in settlements but even that is now under doubt and some sites such as in Turkey show these megaliths without surrounding settlements. So perhaps there is something in the psyche of mankind that draws him to trying to understand the world around him. What would cause that is anyone's guess - was it placed there by "God" or is it the inevitable development that comes with a brain becoming more complex - and as our brains become more develoed still are we losing that "need" as science provides a lot of answers to a lot of things. There is no doubt that a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of religion - although there are many good (inspired works of art for example) too. However that is where religion and tribalism coincide. Just as mankind has an innate seeming need to find a "god" (worldwide it is estimate that far higher than 90% of people say they believe in some form of higher power) so we also find a need to "belong" and so form tribes. the dark side of tribes is that "our" tribe is family but your tribe is not - and may be an enemy. Tribal conflicts go back to the dawn of man and are very evident in the primate kingdom. So religious wars would take place with or without the religion that underpins them. Similar to football loyalties and conflicts. Depending on which you were born into that is the "right" one and must be defended. The sad aspect is that a modern day religion ought to have picked up on the increased "civilisation" that we are supposed to enjoy. That they don't is self evident. In this day and age there is no excuse for believing that one person is better than another whether that is defined by race, creed, sex or any other attribute. Unfortunately though some religions are still more deeply rooted in the past where lack of tolerance was the norm and this does not help. You might think that people who believe in a higher being might leave that being to sort out "praise and punishment" and so not take it upon themselves to mete it out themselves. Whether there is or is not a God is only likely ever to be a belief. If there were a "proof" then sooner or later all would find it and the debating could end. Earlier in this thread Harrow set up 3 categories for how he sees people "falling into religion" I think his third assertion that those who study and come to the conclusion that there is truth are "half-wits" amply demonstrates the prejudice that will always surround the subject. I have known many people who have found religion in that way and they include some extremely intelligent people - perhaps they have had a "personal" revelation of God - who is to say they have not? One day Harrow it could happen to you. One thing is true is that "God" does not solve the problem of where everything came from so whether you have belief in God or not you are left with some unanswered questions. For me it is quite simply a question of respecting other people - they come as a package - good and bad and their religion or lack of belief in it is just one part of that package - to place the blame for the worlds' ills on religion is too simplistic. All the above are of course only my opinion or if you like my "belief" - could be right or wrong but I am as entitled to it as the next man
I'm going to quote from the film Kingdom of Heaven.... and leave it at that. "I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your head and your heart and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not"
Good quote but flawed argument as all it does is show man's weakness and does not actually address religion or the existence of a God as such
