Having been to Dortmund and Berlin recently... I can confirm everything is cheap as eluded to above however the shirts are anything but cheap.
Fan owned you say? TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena to Bayern Munich to stay afloat, while Schalke 04 had debts of £248m two years ago. Meanwhile, SportFive get the first 20 per cent of all monies earned by Hamburg in perpetuity for financing their new stadium, the name of which has changed three times in nine years. And when the politicians or big business won’t help, the league or a rival club obliges. Current champions Borussia Dortmund came so close to going under they were only saved by a £1.6m loan from rivals Bayern Munich — a deal so straightforward and above board that it went unmentioned until recently, close to a decade later. 248 million in debt. Are they fan owned? Last year, Arminia Bielefeld were relegated after £1m to pay player wages was advanced by the Bundesliga in exchange for a three-point deduction that saw them become Liga 3’s problem. The only reason Germany’s Bundesliga has not had three insolvencies in as many seasons is because the administrators, government or local councils have acted in a way that is foreign to the English game. The nearest Tube station to the Emirates Stadium is Holloway Road (not, as many believe, Arsenal). Yet Holloway Road is all but closed on match days because Transport for London decided it did not want to upgrade the exit facilities which currently consist of a winding staircase and lifts. Money set aside for an escalator project ended up being spent elsewhere. Compare this to Germany, where the Munich clubs received £168.7m from city and regional governments to develop the infrastructure around the AllianzArena, including an upgraded railway station and a broadened motorway with new exit. German clubs can be supporter-owned because the state often picks up the tab left for English club owners. It is this inclusive thinking that allows Bundesliga match tickets to double as train passes — a fine plan, but not so easy to implement when the journey to Old Trafford might pass through several privatised networks. So fan owned clubs do go under but they make like they dont. German football has its own way of surviving the recession and parts of their model are truly admirable, but to argue that the Bundesliga blueprint is for all to follow, is an over-simplification. English clubs get it wrong; but so do German ones. The difference is the state-sponsored safety net
You can easily find examples of clubs getting benefits from local government, our stadium was funded by our local council, as was Swansea's and several others, hell West Ham are having £200m gifted to them and Harringey Council are part funding Spurs new stadium, this is just more one-sided 'foreigners aren't that good' bollocks from the Daily Mail . If you want decent information, go to a decent source... German football model is a league apart Chancellor Merkel will be there. So will the 50,000 fans of Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund who've been lucky enough to get tickets the two clubs were allocated. So may many more of the hundreds of thousands who failed to get tickets in the club ballots who bought them elsewhere. The German flag will fly vigorously over Wembley. It can be said with certainty that German football will be the winner - on the field, obviously (you don't need to be clairvoyant to predict that a German club will win). But off the field, too. The stylish way the two German clubs thrashed Barcelona and Real Madrid in the semi-finals seemed like a changing of regimes. Where the Spanish clubs once provided style and inevitable victory, the two German clubs triumphed with as much panache. So the lights at Wembley will be on the way German football is organised. Low ticket prices Bundesliga clubs seem much like the rest of German business (and very different from clubs in the Premier League in England and Wales, for example). They are not indebted to the point of drowning. They rely much more on incomes generated and then invested in the game. Above all, they are clubs, in the legal sense of being formally constituted associations with members who elect officials. Ticket prices are low. In the Bundesliga, the average price for the cheapest tickets is just over £10. In the Premier League, fans pay upwards of £28. For a season ticket, it averages £207 in Germany's top-flight games compared with £468 in England. At Bayern Munich, you can get in (albeit to stand) for £12. Fans of Borussia Dortmund pay £9 to get into the south stand and form "Die gelbe Wand" - the "yellow wall" of colour from the club's shirts and scarves. Contrast those prices with £30 at the cheap end in Manchester United or Real Madrid. This is a matter of policy. 'Member-owners' When Uli Hoeness, the president of Bayern Munich, was asked why the club didn't have higher ticket prices, like they do in England, he said: "We do not think the fans are like cows to be milked. Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England." German clubs are organised in a very different way from British clubs. Uli Hoeness, the president, is the man who has the connections Carlo Wild, Kicker magazine In the Premier League, assorted billionaires own the top clubs (Manchester United - the Glazer family; Manchester City - Sheikh Mansour; Chelsea - Roman Abramovich). In Germany, there is the "50 + 1" rule, whereby the association or club has to have a controlling stake, commercial interests can't gain control, In Bayern Munich, for example, Audi and Adidas each own 9% but the rest is controlled by the members via the club. There are two exceptions: Wolfsburg is owned by Volkswagen and Bayer Leverkusen is owned by the chemical company, Bayer - both clubs originated as works sporting clubs. But generally a club in Germany is a true club for the members. So if you ask fans outside a Bayern game who owns the club, they are incredulous: "The members, of course", they say. Sponsorship The members elect the president, in the case of Bayern, Uli Hoeness, who retains great respect despite being investigated over his tax affairs. He, as a legendary Bayern and Germany player, uses his name to draw in sponsorship. With lower incomes from tickets, German clubs tend to put more weight on sponsorship deals - the magnificent Allianz Stadium in Munich is an example. In 2011, the total revenue for Bayern was 368m euros (£300m), not that far below that of Manchester United with 395m euros (£320m). But the German club got 55% of its revenue from commercial deals with companies compared with 37% from that source for Manchester United. British clubs tend to get a bigger slice of their income from the fans. German clubs tend to form close associations with local firms, which often turn out to be big global companies. Carlo Wild, the chief reporter of Kicker football magazine, told the BBC that Bayern Munich uses the appeal of the big former football stars who have been elected by the fans to run the club. He says: "Uli Hoeness, the president, is the man who has the connections. The name of Franz Beckenbauer - the Kaiser - is also very important. And he opens doors, but Uli Hoeness is the man who acquired the companies, the sponsors." German clubs - just like the rest of German business - tends to be phobic about debt. Long-term thinking Many Premier League clubs run at a loss. Most Bundesliga clubs run at a profit. The difference is in the way German clubs keep costs down. According to Twentyfour7 Football magazine, Bundesliga clubs made a profit of £47m last season while the Premier League made a loss of £207m, even though the income to the British league was higher (£2.4bn) than to German clubs (£1.78bn). But in the Bundesliga, it said, wages were 38% of the clubs' revenue while the in Premier League it was 67% (and as high as 93% in one English case). German clubs do buy stars. To add spice to the final on Saturday, Bayern Munich recently bought Borussia Dortmund midfielder Mario Gotze for a reported €37m (£31.5m). But they also groom youngsters who increasingly come up through the system. On Saturday, two German teams will be on show. But also an off-the-field model of sports organisation - a model which treads carefully, building relationships, thinking long-term. A bit like the rest of German business really. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22625160
this is just more one-sided 'foreigners aren't that good' bollocks from the Daily Mail . no its adding balance. A foreign country's football infrastructure is run in a completely different way to ours. You dont like it but it doesnt stop it being true. While you plough on with your not too subtle the Allams are **** look what a trust could do for us. I'm sure Castro will be along soon to answer its only a tenner to get in at Munich bollocks.
Some people here cherry pick the bits that suit them to say how great German football is then come out with drivel about the Daily Mail when it prints some realities. Similar things were in the Guardian not so long ago. There have been some dodgy arrangements between clubs and local councils which would cause uproar here. They are nothing like the instances here which you quote. Same as they quote the cheap prices but not the top end ones which at some clubs are dearer than all but 4 of our clubs. Another good example of cherry picking is a clown in one of the broadsheets who wrote an article eulogising about German football. He loved the atmosphere, the vibrancy, the fans behind the goal full of younger fans as they could afford to go. However he didn't want to see standing in this country, wasn't keen on people waving large flags about, was horrified at smoke glares being set off and it went without saying that allowing beer to be drunk inside the ground was a no-no as was smoking being allowed. In short he wanted the atmosphere, vibrancy and cheap entrance available in Germany but he didn't want any of the things which made it possible.
You read that into my posts, I never mentioned HCST, I didn't have HCST in mind at all when I posted, my posts were entirely about a club putting it's fans first.
You are quite right Chazz. Try and get in and see one of these games at a cheap price. No mention either of Bayern Munich having 250,000 people paying a membership fee of £60 to go on the list for a draw for tickets either. Same as no mention of paying £150 a year at Barcelona to guarantee a ticket and for which you receive a whopping 5% discount on tickets which go up to over £400 for matches against Madrid. Instead just the cheap season tickets high in the heavens are quoted with no mention of membership fees.
Barcelona's cheapest season ticket is £172.23, their most expensive is £634.81, their cheapest matchday ticket is £17.79 and their most expensive is £247.64(based on 2013 prices). To get those cheap matchday ticket prices you do need to pay the membership fee, though obviously the season ticket holders don't pay it and the highest price tickets are sold to tourists who have no access to the membership scheme. Whatever way you look at it, the most expensive season ticket price at Barcelona is barely any higher than the price of a West Stand pass at the KC(though becoming a season ticket holder in the first place is rather more problematic).
Portsmouths, run by a trust, season tickets are early bird £320 and £370 after July 4th. It could and should have been oh so different. Oh hang on its fine they're run by supporters. Yet they're more expensive than Barcelona. I cant fathom this. Christ i dont know which club to feel so alienated from.
I never mentioned trusts at all, I just said Dortmund showed how a club should treat it's fans. In stark contrast to ours.
A team that has won the German Bundesliga on many occasions is not remotely a relevant comparison to Hull City. Arsenal or Liverpool would be a closer comparison. How many season ticket renewals are they down by?
And it was bombed a lot more than ?Hull in the war with many more deaths and more destruction. No discussions there though about what to do with bomb sites 70 years later. As for population, there is a very large population for whom Dortmund are their local team in the area.
I think you do have to be a member to buy a season pass. They have 106,000 members I believe so at €150 euros a pop that is more than a lot of clubs take in from ticket sales. Last year it was over €400 for the Real Madrid game top price and €90 cheapest for match day tickets. Members got 20% off. This gives an idea of prices. It has also to be remembered that wages for those lucky enough to have a job in Spain are considerably lower than ours and so are benefits.http://www.fcbarcelona.cat/info-ent...a-14_15?_ga=1.255820232.1948784045.1382638519
I declare Castro the winner of this thread. Anyone claiming any football club in the top tiers treats its fans above money is ****ing deluded.
Dortmund have the best gates in Europe, yet have €30-40m lower gate receipts against top Premier League clubs precisely because of their ticket pricing policy. It's not about putting fans ahead of money, it's about making sure you have a good product and treating your customers well, it's simply good business. The polar opposite of what pinky and perky are doing.
I think a better point would be that for a little bit more effort and consideration in how they treated fans a lot of clubs would actually gain financially as well as in other ways
