Good points SilverArrows, I suppose the RBs being more aero dependant will also effect them. Good for them then that they have such good quali pace.
Last season was quite different though - Webber had two or three bumps with Hamilton, Vettel nailed Button in Spa.... It's interesting though and bodes well for the rest of the season - if Ferrari and Mclaren can get up in the mixer with Red Bull, then I think they are going to start taking some good points from them. What we really need are some Alonso/Hamilton 1,2 finishes and for Button/Webber and Massa (unlikely) to keep Vettel down in 5/6th Edit: Read this and thought it through again. Realistically it will be Alonso but the diffuser reversal may bring Mclaren back up into contention. That, and the fact things are so close at the top, all the drivers are going to take points from each other. Vettel will win the championship because of this as much as his already massive lead.
I feel for Mark, I really do. He seems like such a nice guy and has been close to winning the championship before. At first glance, it seems like he will never get a break (no pun intended since Mark did break his leg, was it before the 2010 season?) but what can he do? If Red Bull genuinely are not favouring one driver over another, could he and Hamilton do a direct swap? On the point about RB's overtaking, aren't the Mercedes engines generally stronger than the Renault ones? And I heard on the commentary or F1 Forum on Sunday that Mercedes have one of the most effective DRS systems on the grid and it does seem to me that McLaren have a similar advantage, it always seems like Hamilton and Button use it effectively to overtake. Perhaps it is just an inherent design of the RB car that it isn't condusive to overtaking. Either way, IMO you shouldn't blame Mark for trying to overtake Seb or Horner for telling Mark to maintain the gap. Let me use a footballing analogy. It's similar to a manager sitting back when they have a point in the bag. He knows its a good point, maybe unexpected or because the opposition were just better on the day. But you have, as a manager and player know when to just take a step back. A great example of this IMO is Blackpool this season. They got relegated purely because of Ian Holloway and his stupid "we have to play good attacking football all the time no matter what". Sure it may be entertaining, but it's not good for the team. They got relegated by a single point on the last day of the season. I can recall at least 3 games of the top of my head last season (against Blackburn, us (Man Utd) and Bolton) where they squandered at least one point in all of those games because they couldn't keep their attacking hardons down (Bolton game 2 points because they lost the lead 3 times). If they had just held back and got the results they should have, they'd have stayed up. Critics lauded their performances, saying it was a breath of fresh air, but the fact of the matter is, they lost substantial amounts of money for one thing because they didn't think. We all know that the constructors championship is where the money is in F1, so would you rather be known as the team that was attacking but in the end fruitless or the team that knew that collecting points was the first and foremost?
You raise some good points Muffin: In my opinion, there is no doubt whatsoever about the lie of the land at Red Bull. Let's examine the evidence and apply some logic: They have already collectively targeted a re-writing of the record books with a focus on every statistic possible, since it is the most definitive appraisal of 'greatness' and therefore makes an historic point, regardless of moral validity (Schumacher is the clearest example of course). The marketing strategy is to make a statement which states 'Red Bull' in big loud letters across the top of the pinnacle of motorsport*(see footnote). Unfortunately for Webber, it is Vettel who is perceived as the tool for the job, having natural nationalistic links with the upper management and whole hedonistic Red Bull marketing concept emanating from Austria. Webber is simply not perceived as such an ideal 'young-flavoured' and vital image; whereas Vettel is absolutely perfect for this concept: - Bearing in mind that records are perceived as the vitally important factor, Vettel already has a head start with anything that says "youngest". Webber doesn't get a look-in. Red Bull's marketing is not helped in any way by having Webber (or anyone else) making dents in Vettel's statistics which of course, like any record holder, they hope will stand for many many years. Hamilton could do serious damage to this idea couldn't he? - Although unstated, it should be clear that he is the perfect anti-hero for Red Bull to conquer: indeed, the historic timing of these two guys arrival on the scene could not possibly have been more propitious. Vettel is the icon. Everyone knows Luke Skywalker has to conquer the evil Darth Vader and Hamilton is so perfect for the role that the plot could not have been better written in Hollywood! On the other hand, Vettel has Aryan blonde curly hair; he even has a name which can sound like 'vital'. He is the chosen one. The End. Job done. All we need to do now is sit back and watch history unfold like the the rising of ingredients in the oven… *Footnote It is Red Bull's intent to plaster their name across every form of sport; particularly those perceived to be 'exciting' and 'fun', which give a 'buzz'. After all, are these not the ingredients synonymous with life itself?
The DRS (drag reduction system) being confined to the rear wing adjustment of one of its elements, has nothing to do with engines. However, it is widely accepted that the Mercedes engines (developed by McLaren) have the best KERS, so is this what you were getting at? - It is true that if used cleverly it can aid overtaking by giving some extra punch out of corners, where the extra momentum can be carried all the way down the following straight. However, as speeds increase, engine power becomes ever more secondary to aerodynamic efficiency, which is very much Adrian Newey territory (Red Bull).
Re post #84: This was written in Autosport a couple of weeks ago by Tony Dodgins: It depends on what image you believe Red Bull wish to project. Personally I think Red Bull's target market are less interested in statistics, and more into spectacular, high-octane ventures, a quick look at their YouTube channel will tell you that. A potentially explosive partnership between Vettel and Hamilton would set the pulse racing more than a processional romp to the title. And I believe this is the public image Mateschitz would want for his company. But I think at the same time he wants his team to be at the front of the field, and the key to this is Adrian Newey, who wouldn't want to see his genius spurned by infighting between his drivers. I think Mateschitz would ideally want Newey, Vettel and Hamilton at Red Bull, but doesn't want to risk the two he currently has buggering off to Maranello. I really want to see Hamilton join Red Bull, and I'm sure Mateschitz does as well, but both Newey and Vettel probably have the ability to veto any move if they wish.
I don't disagree with you on most of what you say there AG. But what I wrote above about Red Bull marketing is not a guess. I can assure you that they are indeed targeting statistics as one of their long-term goals, so long as it does not intrude upon what you have rightly spoken of with spectacular, high octane stuff. Then again, if their only concern was the spectacular, why would they perceive a need for team orders? They may indeed see one of these concepts above the other but, given the potential for both, they are grabbing with both hands while the opportunity exists.
actually Cosicave the fact is Webber isn't as good as Vettel, isn't in the same league, look at the luck they both had last year, and yet Vettel still won. Webber is a whiney hypocritical tosser, look at the way he was with Pizzonia, now the boot is on the other foot Webber can't find a camera quick enough. He ignopred the team orders and still couldn't get passed the malfuntioning Vettel, which is why RBR would and should back vettel over him, why back the older, slower, more accident prone driver that continually ignores team orders for the sake of his own glory to possibly their detriment (numerous times), whilst whining to the press about them at almost every opportunity. He should take his own advice and 'man up'. Webber should take a look at Hungary as to how a team-mate should act, although he got a penalty for being too far back Vettels gesture was obvious, he'd sacrifice a personal victory so the team would take first place. I can't believe people have sympathy for Webber, he's an egotistical twat.
I didn't mind him until Turkey/GB, then i realised what a hypocritical 2 faced ****** he was, especially when i heard through the grape-vine that he didn't even want the front wing, I realised he was an envious cry-baby too. He got his version of the story out first, and that's usually the one everyone believes, one thing Webber is good at is media manipulation.
Miggs: I wasn't trying to defend Webber. I was pointing out Red Bull's marketing strategy and attempting to illustrate the reason Vettel is the most perfect fit the team could ever dream of; it is a match made in heaven and it is not unnatural that Webber finds this frustrating. No racing driver likes to discover that he can't change the facts of life. I deliberately steered clear of speaking of driving but now that you've mentioned it, Webber's battle-hardened fighter style does not fit the Red Bull image as much as a driver perceived to fly above them all…
Are you seriously suggesting that the FIA should not introduce and apply regulations which in the long run are in the interests of F1 in general and therefore of the teams? The teams are bound to have a blinkered approach and put their own short-term interests first. They need protecting from themselves as making F1 appear rigged is liable to drive away a good proportion of the casual fanbase and reduce the size of the cake available to everyone.
Miggins your point about Vettel in Hungary is quite possibly one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Vettel threw an extreme hissy fit that day - he had a right go at poor old Herbie Blash before the podium ceremony and once on the podium threw down his hat in disgust and was heavily criticised for his petulance. There was also the radio to the team 'How the **** is Mark in front now, how is zit possible.' If you believe he sacrificed his win for Webber then I'll just have to start calling you Helmut because you clearly believe that his word is the gospel truth. You are probably the only person on any forum that believes anything that that man says so therefore I think you may be Marko in disguise. Is this the case?
Agree. The BBC are equally culpable; the team orders row was just a footnote in what was otherwise a thoroughly entertaining race. But it was the "Webber frustrated by team orders" headline which spent all of Monday plastered over the front of the BBC Sport homepage. They clearly have an agenda for/against certain parties, but when they're at risk of losing the rights to host the sport, they'd do better than to continually paint it in a bad light and drive away potential viewers.
The only way to stop team orders is to only have 1 car and scrap the WCC, even then teams would still do deals under the table.
No it's not. You have a well written rule, published in advance, and make it clear that any penalties for any and every infringement will be draconian, starting with taking away all points scored in the race concerned by the team and both drivers involved for a first offence and taking away all their points for the year in question for a second. They can't say they haven't been warned then. You don't worry about fairness, you don't have to worry about catching every single offence, you just use all that lovely technology available to investigate any suspicious events and hammer the ones who who you can prove were at it without any shadow of a doubt. After the first team is left to twist in the wind, I think we won't see much more of it. It might be a bit unpleasant if it happens to your favourite team or mine that gets made an example of but F1 will be the better for it in the long term.
They already tried banning it and it did **** all, whats stopping them pretending a wheel guns failed or telling a driver in advanced: "If your in the lead just make a "mistake" and just carry on afterwards" You make it sound so easy just putting up rules to ban it. Sooner or later you'll have stewards banning half the grid thinking it's all fixed just because they went wide and let another car through. Be protesting all over the shot then.
