Off Topic Political Debate

When can we expect these proposals to hit the UK comrades?

 

You get consumers by creating wealth - employing people so they have the money to buy things. When an economy crashes then businesses close and consumers are able to consume less - it is chicken and the egg. Production will happen - without entrepreneurs - glad you think so; I suspect many would simply pretend to employ people by creating non jobs in the public sector thus taking in taxes what goes to employees.
Having lived through the fifties,sixties seventies and eighties I did not see governments working on keeping demand stable - I saw repeated attempts at growth - performed in the UK so badly we had continual boom and bust. Rates of growth in Europe reflected post war recovery.
No high horse here - just the desire not to enter into another sterile debate on definitions which you seem to love. I was talking about practical trickle down - the fact that millionaires money DOES go to less well off people when they spend it - I was not using it as economic theory and have agreed all along that money trickles up as well. My point is you see it as a means of redistibution of wealth _ I don't just a practical reality an fact. I repeat from earlier - the tax system is there to redistribute wealth

 

The way you begin here is interesting Leo. If you have a system which has nothing ie. no demand, no spending power,no solid currency and no production where do you start ? Not, I suggest with production. In order to get a system moving again you need to start with demand and spending power - this was one reason why the people of the GDR were all given a present in Deutschmarks at the unification, to kick start the economy there. This is why the concept of austerity is not the heal all which it is claimed as being, and why Germany must change its stance with Greece now - the Germans have a saying 'von nix kut nix' (Plattdeutsch - not normal German) which means from nothing comes nothing.

 

Oh yes - NIcola Sturgeon pleading with Ed MIliband to do a deal was a figment of my imagination; Ed Miliband running scared of the electorate seeing him get in bed with the SNP who desire the break up of the UK was amusing in itself. But they all could agree on hating the Tories and UKIP. They were all anti-right wing however you try to cloak it - and yes of course outside of that they were competing with each other.

 

I find this debate is getting very strange. Many small shops in town have closed down because of insufficient trade to pay the very high business taxes. Clearly what they were selling was not wanted in sufficient quantity even when they sold items that are not easily found in the large supermarkets. To have the government pay out "wages" requires them to raise even more money, yet everywhere here companies are folding because of government policy which is a high tax, high spend policy. To some degree that is what happened in Greece and the country now is seeking to borrow more simply to pay the interest on previous loans. The companies that are succeeding are the large chains that can afford to employ plenty of staff at low wages, and use their buying power to provide cheap foreign imports. Of course their are many people who will support the local producers of food as much as possible, but if the price for their goods is too high and they can buy something of a similar quality at a much cheaper cost, it is obvious what they will do.

 

If basic citizens' wage is the name then yes. I learned as much as I needed to know from the Green manifesto thank you - it made it quite plain that it is to be paid to everyone whether they are a lazy good for nothing scrounger or a genuine worker. You might not mind people who CHOOSE (not cannot ) but CHOOSE not to work taking your money but I and millions of UK citizens who work and pay our taxes do not want people taking our money to pay for their choice to not work.
Don't try to blur that ridiculous tenet of Green dogma with existing benefits systems. People whotake others' money must be prepared to do what they are able to do. It is not an option to receive beneift and contribute nothing. That is Green policy and is just stupid. I heard the other day that the German Green party had actually said that the British Greens were failing as they were still stuck in the hippy mindset whereas European Greens had matured.

 

You start with the existing economy - this is not all just a theoretical economic exercise. We are where we are and from here we make choices about how we move on. You do not seem to understand my reference to chicken and the egg - they are interdependent - you cannot consume anything if itis not produced and there isno point in producing if nobody is a customer.
Kick starting the GDR meant that people in the West gave some of their money to the East - it did not appear from nowhere and I doubt the West Germans tried the Brown /Greek route of excessive borrowing.

 

I am not trying to blur anything Leo - the money would be going out anyway in some sort of benefit (because, like it or not,we can not tell anyone, scrounger or not, that he has to live on nothing) the basic citizens wage replaces all other benefits and is simpler full stop. One major point here the German Greens are not in the habit of making official comments about parties in other countries (whether referring to other Green parties or not) and the idea of a citizens wage is also supported by the Green Party here. We do not use words like hippy mindset to describe other members of the European Green movement.

 

I know we are being quite forthright in all this - but I am enjoying the interchange of ideas and philosophy as I hope others are. I am slightly surprised that this thread did not go quiet again post election but hopefully whilst we all argue strongly we continue to be friends.

 

The West Germans didn't borrow to do this they brought in a so called solidarity tax (which is still being paid) - the justification for this being that the GDR had paid the entire war debt to the USSR on their own.

 

99% of people in the UK would tell a scrounger to live on nothing if they just chose not to work. Your idea will never catch on.

 

I am not sure it was any "official" statement, only saying what was said to Natalie Bennett in the post election analysis. Can you speak for all German Greens? Whether the words were exact the sentiments were very clearly that the UK Greens were still naive and the German who said it felt they had learned how to get political results whereas she had not. Hippy mindset were not the words used but were clearly the words behind the words used.
It is one thing to have a policy that says "don't worry you can have the same benefits as everyone else whether or not you work" and basic minimal state "keep you alive" money. I do not mind giving my money in taxes to people who genuinely need it but not to those who choose to scrounge. Until Greens and some left wing Labour and Socialist Worker Party members understand that they will never understand what it takes to gain votes in numbers other than protest levels.
Before Bolton chips in with how in Scotland they love paying people to do nothing I say good luck to Scotland if they do believe in that

 

The assumption being of course that most of the unemployed simply choose not to work. Unfortunately it is also a fact of life that if you tell somebody to 'live on nothing' that they will probably turn to crime - and, guess what, keeping people in prison is more expensive than benefits would be. If you were running this country we would probably have things like Cholera making a return.

 

Just to clear this one up Leo. It is not our business to criticize the English Greens - this could only be done if they were in power and actually pushed things through which were against the policy direction of the European Greens. What individual Greens here think I can't say - from our local members nobody has said anything and for the other 140,000 (yes - we are more than the British tories ) I have not heard anything - and, it is honestly not their business.

 

So as I say the West chose to pay for the East. Justification probably being that in the long term they felt they would be richer with East Germany assimiliated rather than any war debt rationale.

 

People are like children if they behave badly they need to be educated / encouraged by various rewards or penalties to change their behaviour to fit in. The last government found in the last few years substantial numbers of claimants who became ex claimants once they were investigated. There is more work to be done to rout out the fiddlers. Please don't rant about the equally fiddling bankers.

 

Not my assumption - surprised you would assume that - bit rude really. I was talking only and specifically about those that the Greens identify as people they want to use other people's money for to allow them to do nothing and be paid for it. To actually have a policy to pay people who WANT not to work is bizarre.

 

Why not rant about the equally fiddling bankers? Root out both.

 

This reply was directed at superhorns not at you Leo.

 

I agree but we were discussing receiving basic citizens wage instead of benefits.