Off Topic Political Debate

I suppose whatever the Tories do they will be cast as the baddies by the left. I do hope that Cameron can make all members of society feel they matter. It will be difficult with the proposed benefit cuts but our debts must be addressed.

Where the SNP would have had no legitimacy is if they held the balance of power and forced an anti austerity policy on the UK that had firmly rejected it.

 

If I am honest I kind of regret asking for none of it at the start - maybe next time we should have a list of acceptable ones...

 

There is, as you say, a 5% hurdle to cross in most countries with PR. However if you have it then people know that their votes are not wasted and so parties like eg. the Greens have little problem then reaching this. The problem with first past the post voting is that so many people then vote tactically eg. natural Greens voting Labour etc. If so many people in a country are voting for what is in effect only their second or third choice party - or through fear ie. to keep the Tories or Labour out then you can only really come to a negative collective result.

 

The SNP members have as much legitimacy as any of the others who were voted into that position in a democratic election - or are we starting to stifle free speech here !

 

Like insults are ok. if they're not in English ?

 

I think we need to remember some basic rules of respect etc..

It is really hard to try and develop a meaningful discussion otherwise.... it is just playground jibing

But I don't think it should be up to you ..... and thanks for the reminder.

It is really hard to treat people positively when they are taking the p@ss etc....

and I do think there are posters who are doing that....


anyway... off to watch some football

 

Sheisshausman

From my O level German

 

Fortunately the SNP find themselves in a position where they can rant and rave with very little effect on the next government. I do believe their impotency will annoy the Scots. There is no way austerity will be applied to the rest of the union and not Scotland. The only solution is to give the Scots full tax raising and spending powers, which they may not accept as the financial umbilical cord will be cut for good.

 

I wonder how many of you have ever stood for election. I have, and know that you have accept the will of the voters. There have been people who did a great job for the electorate who lost their seats, but took the results. I felt for the Liberals who did what they thought was right for the country, but paid an unreasonable price for their commitment to keep the promises made.

As for the results north of the border, that had been predicted with greater accuracy than for the kingdom as a whole. Just how long they can continue to blame others when things go pear shaped remains to be seen, but the day will come when the voters up there will start to question what they are at and turn against them. No great political point there, it just always happens.

 

Get off your high horse Cologne. It was only an election for goodness sake - get over it and stop being so precious. I have not talked down to you but tried to understand where you are coming from in your constant denigration of our democratic process and likening it to some eastern european models. I have family elsewhere in the world too but you yourself have said you don't know so much about the British Greens for example as you don't live here - can I be blamed for then thinking your knowledge of other aspects of current British politics will be less current than if you were here all the time. Having family and friends is not the same as being here - you miss the day to day interaction. It seems I cannot say anything right - even when I try to put out an olive branch to try to understand our different perspectives and to say I do not hold one person's view (mine) as better or worse than another's. You stated " I love Britain, that is why I care for what happens there, am no less British than you are and consider German democracy (even with PR) as no better." I had never implied I doubted that - except the last point where if you read your own posts you said our democracy was flawed by first past the post, the House of Lords and the Monarchy (or did I dream that?) and was trying to affirm that. Now get over yourself and either argue the point or drop it. Do you consider our democracy flawed or not?

 

If you do not like the voting method in the UK you could read about our system called D'Hondt which is also used in Wales for their parliament. It is complicated but does well for us. The system allows choices from many candidates and then a national proportional part for all parties with more than 5% of the votes.

http://eng.innanrikisraduneyti.is/laws-and-regulations/nr/6713 chapter XVI

 

Your time is now, its just thankfully not in the UK. The left rule a fair proportion of the world and they are welcome to it. Equality in squalor and poverty and being told what I can and cannot do as my actions affect a greater nobler need (society) which I as an individual should not aspire to understand what is best for is not something I aspire to.

 

You are right in one way Leo and wrong in another. Living in another country does mean that you are further away from current events. However, what you lose in one way you gain in another. When a person comes back to a country after a longish absence (I have lived outside the UK for 26 years) you notice things when going back which the locals do not notice. In the same way as standing outside you can see a whole forest whereas when you are inside you see only the next tree. We have a sister Green party in England (ie. a partnership between the Greens in Engelskirchen and one constituency in England) so I am pretty well aware of what they are doing and in which ways they are similar or different to us, although I am not always aware of every single aspect of their manifesto. I am not going to go into details here Leo but many things have changed in the UK. since I left some for the better, but a lot for the worse. In the latter group is the tendency to look for scapegoats here, there or anywhere, be it the EU, Polish immigrants, Scots or whoever. Another change is that now housing is being sold in London for prices which are 7-8 times the price for the same size house in Berlin - and normally the house in Berlin is better built as well. As for my critique of democracy (and please don't feel offended because I could do the same for Germany here) my problem is:
1. The lack of PR leads to non representative governments and to tactical voting in spired mostly by fear of someone.
2. If party size is only 1.5 % of the population then we can say that all political ideas are originating from a very small segment of the population. Populations in democracies are more active in politics.
3. The Monarchy itself is not a problem but the oath of allegiance is - meaning that every member of parliament, every high court judge, military officer takes an oath of allegiance to both the reigning Monarch and to her successors. This means that any question of the changing of the political role of the monarchy (or the ending of these titles) cannot be discussed in parliament. Also implicit here is acceptance of the role of the Queen as head of the church in England (thus making this oath difficult for Quakers, Methodists etc.)

There are many other points I could make here - is it ok. to take taxes from people who have no full voting rights e.g. Polish workers. No taxation without representation - and all that.

 

Absolutely.. This was not the Scottish election, there is no anti Scottish feeling in my or many others heres blood. This electuion I voted based on what I trhink will be best for Society as a whole and the values of self determination and the right to self betterment. My own take on the why of the result is that the conservative party were recognized for the good work done to date in fixing the complete mismanagement of Gordon Brown. Labour cannot yet be trusted until they prove some economic nouse in order to be able to pay for a better society we first must earn the right we have not been born with. The SNP result is remarkable and a testament to that partys excellent management of campaigns and Sturgeons acceptable face to radical Nationalism. People up here are worried about Europe and still have this amazing misconception of the wealth entitlement by birth, even today on the news some numpty in George Street in Aberdeen was spouting how he wanted a) change (no idea to what), how he wanted more power (the people in this country have incredible power compared to most of the world) and more money from oil revenues (oil revenues don't even cover costs in many cases at these low oil prices and we're already only at around 25% of our old peak with ever declining revenues. If I take a selfish view we probably got the best result possible in these elections wit ha conservative government guiding the economy to an ever stronger relative position on the global stage and a strong SNP representation kicking up a stink and no doubt maintaining our disproportionate take from the UK purse much to the benefit of my family but is it fair? No not at all. The resulting resentment that will come from the English to the Scotts is going to be the big pain I will have to bear....

 

(thus making this oath difficult for Quakers, Methodists etc.)

I have never come across this before. Think that is totally wrong.

I don't have full voting rights in France. Should I pay less taxes therefore? No, I choose to live here knowing that I cannot vote to remove the President. It surely comes down to accepting the rules, fair or not. It is a bit like taking a job that requires you to work on a Sunday, then saying you object to Sunday work on religious grounds.

 

I don't know how long you have been in France Frenchie but after a certain time you find yourself totally disenfranchised ie. after 15 years absence you can't vote in the UK. any more, but also don't have voting rights in the country you have gone to - you then ask the question can a citizen be totally disenfranchised ? Voting rights are also intimately connected with feeling that you 'belong' somewhere and the wish to then integrate. For years I was without voting rights here and had to take dual nationality to get over this problem.

 

That's a bit rich ofh - SNP hold 56 seats out a possible 650 meaning they will be able to exercise control over precisely nothing, yet they are expected to shoulder the blame themselves if something goes wrong? For the last five years they have had far, far less presence during a time when plenty has gone pear shaped - even further beyond their control, yet you seem to expect them to have shouldered the blame for that too? On top of that, you appear to think that they should be denied the right that is afforded to every other opposition party in a Westminster style system of government - the right to argue against decisions made & implemented by the 'ruling party'? Just for the record, can you point to anything at all that is their own fault and which they have blamed on others just the once, never mind on a continued basis?

 

Salmond and his merry bunch will huff and puff but will have to accept the will of the people. The Conservatives will decide on which fiscal policy will affect Scotland until an agreement otherwise is reached.

 

Sorry BB I wasn't precise enough in my comments. What I should have indicated was that things will go wrong for the SNP in Scotland at some point. No matter what things are like at present, they will go wrong and then people will start looking for an alternative. Eventually people will see that to simply blame everything on Westminster does not hold water. You have professional politicians up there who have been very clever so far to exploit the feelings of people, but history shows that they will say whatever seems the right thing to say to keep power and at some point will get it wrong. It is just how long it will take.

 

I could have registered to vote in the UK, but didn't feel that it was right to do so as I don't live there anymore. I do have some voting rights here, just not for presidential elections. There are moves to change this, but things move very slowly. Mr. Hollande is looking to get votes from anywhere.

I think I am pretty integrated after 9 years and will accept the situation. It would be good to have a say, but somehow I doubt he will get a second term.