Off Topic Political Debate

I think it must have been very cold in the pond all day which explains your predicament - certainly I can send over a hand picked witch doctor !

 

Well that can be levelled at you or me as easily as at superhorns.
I think I remember you acting as a policeman (if that is how you see it) and calling for censure / bans. As an ex headteacher I am sure you applied fairness and equality to all your pupils and even your revised @@@@ is not an argument but a personal comment. Do you or do you not want debate here - do you or do you not want personal attacks - I am not opposed to personal attacks if that is the mood of the forum as long as they are allowed to all and we have no hypocrisy. (Dan - good to see your post).
You have surprised me on this thread by your use of some material as well as the nature of your debate - not how I would have envisaged your style - perhaps you are just more passionate and committed to a cause than I anticipated. But I did not want to fall out with you about it.

 

Leo, this will be known as the 'Scottish election' in the future. It was not just that Labour lost about 45 seats in one fell swoop up there - ok. this did not affect the Tory majority, but........ The spectre was raised in many English minds of Labour propped up by the SNP in Westminster and it was this thought which, I believe, was the Tories greatest weapon. These MPs (from the SNP) were so demonized, even though they had been legitimately elected by UK constituencies, that any connection with them was seen as a poisoned chalice - this 'anti Scottish' sentiment being whipped up by the right wing hysteria of the press. Since the Scottish referendum I have had a bad feeling about this election - particularly with the thought that it was Cameron who agreed to it being so close to the election - possibly with the knowledge that it would harm Labour in some way. One more thing, before we start arguing about what is democratic and what isn't maybe we should define democracy (like we tried to define socialism) because it is a much used word which is rarely analyzed. I have also made no reference to Germany, and rather dislike your lectoring tone there. I love Britain, that is why I care for what happens there, am no less British than you are and consider German democracy (even with PR) as no better.

 

The thought of the UK being ruled by Labour and the SNP was a legitimate concern. The three main UK parties were united in the need for austerity, it would have undemocratic for the SNP, with a tiny percentage of votes compared to the other three, to have their way.

Fortunately the electorate firmly rejected this frightening possibility.

 

A lefty till I die ......Our time will come !

 

There is no time for disappointment Yorkie, because history is history and only the next elections now matter. From a Green perspective you doubled your share of the vote. Caroline Lucas held her seat. The party contested more seats than ever before and got their message out to more people in doing so. This will pay dividends at the next round of elections (local, European etc.).

 

Those voters will have to get out for those occasions Cologne. History does not bode well on that score but then again maybe people who did vote that way might now feel a bit more positive in terms of votes if not seats.

 

Friends of mine who voted LD last time round were outraged that Clegg took them into a coalition with the Tories. I don't think everyone saw the LDs as "moderate"; many had voted positively for liberal principles on education for example and felt very let down that their vote helped to put Cameron in no 10. I sense that this left a sour taste especially in many west and south west constituencies.

 

Despite putting up candidates in many more constituencies the Greens failed to win any more seats. They are merely a protest vote in the UK. Their policies did not stand up to scrutiny, especially the anti austerity stance, totally rejected by the UK.

 

While Yorkie's graph of the Green and SNP ratio of votes cast to seats gained seems unfair, I do find myself relieved that with the number of votes cast for UKIP they will not be not sitting in Westminster with 12% of MPs.

 

Tory boys , don't get too cocky . Your party only received a few percentage points more than Labour .
I'm going to enjoy watching the Conservatives struggle with a small majority and the Scottish Nationals totally balls up .
Next time around Labour will have more passion , a stronger leader and a vision .
The Tory lies will be exposed , they will hurt the majority of the population , the apathetic non voters will wake up . The loony "Tory" Ukippers are finished .
Labour ( forget the "New Labour " Crap ) and the Liberals will totally decimate the Self serving nasty party who will be out of Government for 3 terms .
Come on you reds !! Labour till I die .

 

Not much reality there!!

The Tories have a reasonable majority that can be bolstered by a deal with the Ulster Unionists if required. They will govern for at least 5 years. After the boundary changes and probable Scottish independence it will leave England very much Conservative for a generation.

Labour moving to the left will only lessen the chance of power.

 

The Conservative party needs to survive the EU referendum in one piece first - do you envisage Tory MPs campaigning against each other in something so important, or more defections from the party ? One of the 2 is more or less pre destined - new elections in maximum 2 years I think.

 

They said the last coalition would not last 5 years, they were wrong. The rivalry in the Tory party depends on the outcome of the negotiations. 5 years it will be.

 

I remember Norway coming on here saying that UKIP were the "new kids on the block" and would take many seats at this election. As a party that can get an impressive vote in a by election, it is very different when you try to fight seats across the whole country. When the leader cannot win the seat that he chose because he thought it gave him the best chance, you realize that despite the number of votes they received they are not really the force they would have you believe. Without the leader who will push them forward now? I have noticed that although he resigned today, he has said he might come back again in a few months.

 

It will not be known as anything of the sort.
The spectre of a Labour government which only held power by sharing with a party that does not want the UK to exist is, as superhorns says, legitimate. Without the SNP there was never going to be a Labour government. There is nothing anti-Scottish - there is everything anti-Independence. Try living in Britain again Cologne and then find me any reasonable minded people who were prepared to have a UK government held in place by SNP - you do not live here so do not know how much people resent the SNP and everything they stand for - it needed no right wing hysteria - that is a construct of the left. A theme you will find throughout this thread is blame the Tory / Westminster / Fat Cat / Establishment / Media / Murdoch Press etc - such sentiments show the left wing disdain for ordinary people's ability to see things for themselves.
Face it - the left wing will never win the hearts and minds of real working people in Britain - we are as I have said a moderate nation and not fooled by left wing rhetoric.
I will not try to define Democracy - we failed to define Socialism - both are multi-faceted and mean different things to different people. I find you tend to only accept a very narrow definition.
My only intent on referring to Germany in respect to you is that is where you have lived for ? 30 years and you clearly admire the continental rather than the British form of Democracy - I see nothing wrong with that but do not share it. I do not doubt your love of Britain.

 

Sweet dreams

 

ok ok

 

One question for people who attack the first past the post. Do you allow every party into Parliament or do you have a threshold of the % of the vote to achieve before they can get seats. It is my understanding that many PR systems have a lower limit - 5%??? - to prevent fringe parties like the National Front from gaining a platform for extremist views.

If there were a threshold of 5% of total UK vote then only four parties met that - Conservative with 37%; Labour with 30%; UKIP with 13% and LibDems with 8%.
I suspect you will all denounce any such lower limit which would exclude not only the Greens but even the SNP.

 

Leo, don't talk down to me in that way, I still have family in Britain, care as much for it as you do and have just as much right as you to speak about it. I still carry a British passport and am therefore affected by everything which Britain does - particularly in relation to Europe. When you have a 'democratic' election then you must assume that every candidate accepts the legitimacy of every other candidate, and that, in as much as SNP members are there specifically to represent UK constituencies, they are 'legitimate' members of parliament. If the Scots had been told before the referendum that the reward for staying in the Union was to have their elected members in Westminster (of whatever party) treated as MPs second class what do you think they would have voted ? You say that over here I cannot pick up on what the English feel about the SNP - the problem is that I can feel the contempt from here ! Did the Scots have no rights to voting on possible independence ? Was the mere fact of wanting to break away sufficient reason for this rampant hysteria ?