Off Topic Political Debate

I cannot believe how crass the Tories often are - their PR is non- existent. The Poll Tax - how stupid was that? The Bedroom Tax- a sensible idea totally F****d up.
Closing dead and dying industries was always a necessity - and defeating union bosses who were out to make the nation dance to their tune - absolutely essential. But who on earth thought you could destroy steel, mining, other manufacturing industries and communities without then providing a replacement. The Tories may tackle tough issues on economics but what a heartless bunch. HOw could they think that destroying large sathes of the country could be acceptable? Did they never realise that politically they would suffer - more like they did not care - these were not their voters. WHy did we not try to set up advanced high tech industries to replace those which died?

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/remember-those-killed-tory-austerity-5642530

I guess in a battle... these are collateral damage

 

Leo, there is absolutely no party which has a monopoly on good ideas - this is why coalition may be the best way forward. All parties have men/women of ability and the country needs all of their abilities. Where the Greens have an advantage is not in 'what is' but rather what 'could be`, they are the most democratic of all the parties, in as much as party members have more of a chance to influence party policy than in the others, they are a 'work in progress' They have (in the UK. not here) nearly doubled their membership figures over the last year - it is a party in movement, and a party of youth. Compare this to the Conservatives. Their membership figures have become so embarassingly low that they no longer release up to date details of these (they have fewer members than the German Green Party), and the average age (at least the last one given) was nearly 70. For every 40 members which they had in the 50s only one is there now - and it is the hard, right wing core which is left. People actually don't go to their conferences any more through fear that they might be called on to give a cardiac massage at any moment.

 

1. The Tories have crap PR. If they had someone with half a brain cell they would be explaining exactly what they are doing, and why they are doing it. I'm sure a lot more people would view them favourably with a decent explanation. As it is their opposition bang on about cuts and austerity, as if the current government aren't actually spending more than the last one. Their expenditure is in different areas, but they are still borrowing money from somewhere and spending more. Someone will have to pay for this and it will not be the government, it will be us.

2. Poll Tax was a brilliant idea. One person in a dwelling pays one, two people two, etc. When I was young, single and struggling to pay a mortgage it was the best thing the government could have done for me and many others. Why should I pay the same as a household with several members who were working, I was using less in the way of public services than two or three people in a household, and those receiving many of benefits available had it paid for them anyway. Now I am married anfd have a child I would have paid more, that's fair. The only thing that is fair about rates or council tax is the more your property is worth the more you pay, and even poll tax had an element of value banding in it.

 

It is that sort of crass, incorrect, biased rubbish article that would make me vote Tory. Not that I would ever have seen it if Yorkie were not a Mirror reader. How you can post such garbage and yet denigrate the Mail and Sun which are equally worthless rags I don't know. Yorkie, if I did not know you were an ex Headteacher and therefore a highly intelligent person then I would think ..........

Just realised - last time out I voted Plaid Cymru - can't do that again.

 

Just popped up on my FB page....

They are all at it.... read today's telegraph too...

an example of the battle on both sides....

 

I do not read any newspaper - long ago I realised they expounded tripe that I cannot be bothered to waste my life looking at. I honestly doubt that you of all people Yorkie can believe that Mirror garbage so why post it? Each to their own though so if you think it adds to the sum of human knowledge good luck

 

Income tax is the means to apply "progressive" taxation on earnings - not dwellings. A house has services to it -roads, refuse collection, policing etc that have no bearing on the number of occupiers. Other services that are paid to councils such as education are not proportional to the number of people living in the house - and certainly not taxpayers.
When young and single in a house - if there was a young couple living next door - what extra services did they obtain? Why should they pay double? And what about if they then had a baby and one had to stop work - two poll tax charges from one income?
No - the poll tax was deeply flawed - more so than the Labour-called bedroom tax

 

You keep on about party membership figures. I regard them as totally irrelevant. Were the Tories and Labour somehow "better" when they had mass membership - I think not. It is votes that are important. The Greens need members for funds - neither Labour nor Conservatives do.
I have supported PR all my adult life. Mainly because it is fairer but also because it prevents the damaging swings from left to right and vice versa that so harm an economy. I grew up when there were Tory-Labour-Tory-Labour governments each lasting about 5 years. Each government could blame the previous one for their errors and so screw up themselves. As a liberal with a small "l" I liked the idea of the Liberal Party holding the balance of power - preventing excessive drift to left or right. So long as PR has a safety net to keep out the likes of the BNP it is far far the better system over first past the post.

As a pensioner I will ignore your ageist comments - putting them in the same can as homophobia, sexism and racism. We live now to 100 plus - 70 year olds are not to be belittled.

 

I don't 'believe' it as such Leo.... and I don't read the Mirror.... the way Facebook works is someone posted it as a link article and it appeared in my news feed.. It was in response to a discussion that developed with superhorns around benefits and that he was perpetrating the idea that people scrounged etc....

I certainly did not mean to cause offence... and it was in the public domain...

 

Are we nearly-70's worth less than other members of the human race then? Certainly not in my book. I've never joined any political party but if I did I would think my education, work and life experience worth double that of the average 30-, 40- or 50-year-old

 

No offence caused at all - just find it strange that you would post from a rag rather than make an argument. Like superhorns I am sure that the "poor" like the "rich" are not above their share of cheating the system. How many people do we know personally - not ourselves of course - who have paid cash in hand and so forth - if we are not spotless do we think others are or should be? I don't; so believe we have to be on guard with other people's money i.e. taxes - to ensure they are not spent unwisely. It is a sad fact of life that there are very many people of all political persuasions who want something for nothing.

 

Quite right too. 70 in my book is the start of middle age.

While out in the garden my next door neighbour of a similar age, but French was asking me about the election. He thought that the country should continue with the present government, as compared to France and America, he lives there part of the year, there was a moderate improvement for the country and without that improvement the services could not be improved. He did not realise that as it had been a coalition you could not vote for it.

You should be careful about those who promise everything I was told. Everybody thinks that they know someone who has more wine than them. Envy will not be good for the eyes.

 

This is an interesting article in which John Major criticizes current Tory policy on inequality, education and ethnic minorities:

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Pri...ticises-Tory/story-26448656-detail/story.html

"We need to acknowledge the fact that we have a pretty substantial underclass and there are parts of the country where we have people who have not worked for two generations and whose children do not expect to work. How can it be that in a nation that is the fifth richest nation in the world, that in the United Kingdom we have four of the poorest areas in Europe? I include eastern Europe in that question"

It is good to hear a critique from an ex-PM against current Tory propagation....

 

"Sir John said a minority Labour government propped up by the SNP would "turn rich against poor, north against south, worker against boss."

There will always be more that we expect from any government and when they try to do things that will improve matters it should be because they want to make life better for all, and not just to try and win the next election.

 

Agreed

Are the SNP really that extreme?

 

Agree with Sir John, a good critique but hardly a criticism. It's what I love about democracy, we are not obliged to follow the whip but can make valid observations and recommendations based on our own perceptions. How do we eliminate poverty, eliminate fraud, eliminate waste, eliminate crime? A sense of pride, common purpose and belief that self advancement is possible I would say but how, it's beyond my tired mind to find the solution. Glad to hear 70 is the start of middle age as 50 feels like the end of old age at the moment, bring on the youth.....

 

45 feels bad enough

 

Well Leo, I didn't realise what a stir I was causing with the 70 year old quip - but really, as an average age for party membership ? And with such declining membership where are the next Tories coming from ? The reason why party membership is important is that it is an indication of how politically involved a population is - compare the UK. 1.5% of the population are party members. In Austria it is 17%. What does this tell us about the political involvement of the British people ? When all political ideas stem from an aging group of 1.5% of the population and the others only vote every few years. I too am a supporter of PR. Whatever happens tomorrow I do not want to see a majority based on only 36% or so of the vote (for either party) - I have seen that too often and do not want the mass of the population to always be losers in this way. I also do not want to have to explain such a travesty to my German friends who believe the UK to be a democracy. With the present voting system only a few seats really matter, whole parts of the country become electoral deserts without representation and governments do not have the support of the population. Despite this, and my own distance from events, I am looking forward to tomorrow because I can remember the adrenalin of being a party member in the UK. at election time. I hope to see Superhorns do the decent thing and spend the day standing in the pond in Watford High Street ( as he promised to do in protest) !.