Off Topic Political Debate

I don't suppose it is very pleasant to queue up an the unemployment office, social security office, housing office or children having free school meals but it is better than going without. Having food tokens may even feed some children where cash may have been spent on non essentials. It should be the state's responsibility to protect people not make them feel better.

If needed I would be prepared to humiliate myself if it protected my family. In France there is so much unemployment a lot of people must be using these tokens so not so unusual.

 

How long have you been living there ofh?

The reason I ask is that, in the early 90's in Oz, I was involved in a working party looking at alternative methods of reciprocal obligation for those in receipt of UE benefits - very much a bone of contention here at the moment. One of the models we looked at was the French one, and rated it very highly. The simple version of it was that UE benefit was paid only if the recipient turned up for a daily work party doing community service type of activities. Recipients would only be paid for the days they turned up - it was entirely up to them how many days they attended, and therefore how much they earned. By the sounds of things, it is no longer in operation? Although we rated it highly, we discounted it as there were a couple of very obvious problems for us in it's implementation and continuation.

 

Just seen on the news the, erm, 'gentleman' from ukip who would "...personally put a bullet between his eyes..." speaking about a Sikh councillor.

Two things: 1. personally I think this is tantamount to treason, the threat to murder a democratically elected person. I don't think what he said could possibly be taken out of context or as the result of entrapment. Arrested and tried methinks.

2. It rather succinctly shows up the kind of scum that ukip has attracted to its ranks. Whatever your feelings on the EU, just know who you're throwing your hat into the ring with if you vote for these scheisters.

 

I bought the house in 2000, did lots of work on it over the years in our 'holidays' then finally moved here full time 9 years ago BB. I am not too sure how some of it works, but from the people who have had dealings with the authorities that I do know, it sounds as if it has become a bit of a nightmare of paperwork, which can leave the claiming person with no support for months. There are different classes of unemployed here. Basically they get different treatment depending on which class they fall into. As far as I know there is no emergency fund for people to fall back on, as in the UK, when the authorities leave people with nothing. There are plenty of charities that exist to help the poorer members of society, but they are finding that over the past couple of years they are struggling to meet all the demands that are coming upon them. There are get back to work schemes which are funded 50% centrally and 50% locally. These are nearly always in local authority jobs, so there is little chance of an employer seeing that a person has made a difference to the business, and takes them on full time. What has become clear is that the government has basically run out of money and despite their good intentions it has become very much harder for those at the bottom of the heap.

 

They've sent idiots posting threats on Facebook/Twitter to celebrities to prison for less.

Sadly some people on here would still vote Tory knowing that it could mean a deal with UKIP and the DUP if they don't get a majority...

 

Last night I dremmt that I awoke on Friday morning to the news that Neil Kinnock had been elected with a majorityof 14 seats. God knows what to read into that!

 

oh.... 'old labour'

 

I lived in a village near Toulouse in the early 2000's. There was a young French family living next door who we became very friendly with. The wife was a full time school teacher and the husband was some kind of technical engineer. Unfortunately he was made redundant. At that time the unemployment benefit he received was based on a fairly high percentage of his former salary, this being so for a year or so then it reduced. There was no compulsion to take a job unless it matched the very narrow band of duties he previously was employed doing.

This chap spent most days having barbecues and lounging around his pool. He had absolutely no intention of finding a job until his level of benefits dropped.

There are people everywhere who work the system without any regard for their compatriots paying their taxes. I certainly would not have had any sympathy if he
had been paid partly in food tokens.

 

Worth remembering that when Leo started this thread it was to discuss political philosophy as opposed to party politics which is a lot of what is happening now. I think most of the posters on here were around then but you weren't.

It was an attempt to get above the duality of partisan debate. I actually think I or someone else may have started another thread about party policies etc... but this is the one that has stayed live.

 

Yes i am sure there are people that "play" the system and they should be held to account. I'm still not in favour of the sort of punitive measures you suggest though. Losing a job, a house and the ability to support one's family, often through no fault of one's own, has to be one of the worst things that can happen (I'd actually say ill health / bereavement is the only one worse). I don't see the need to strip people of their dignity even further.

 

One of the local primary schools closed 18 months ago due to lack of numbers. The only teacher had worked very hard to provided the dozen children a decent start in their education. When it closed she was not offered another job elsewhere, and since then has been doing back to work jobs, a few months at a time, until the local commune runs out of money. Today she will be running a children's holiday club, not because she will be paid anything, but because she wants to contribute to the life of the community.
It is examples like her that do not fit in with the lazy unemployed model, and I would not wish her to suffer in any way through something that is not her fault. To sort out the deserving and not would require yet another army of public employees.

 

I can only echo this. The thread is one about politics in its widest sense and not restricted to the next election. Talking only about the election would be fruitless because I can't vote in the UK. anymore and Superhorns will be spending the day stood in a duckpond in protest but also not voting.

 

Cologne - when I put my X in the box tomorrow I'll leave a message on the ballot paper to let them know that I'm voting for you as well

 

I would hardly call paying some benefits in food tokens punitive. It could actually help many dysfunctional families when the 'man' of the household gambles or spend the cash on booze. The main criteria should be to protect the children.

 

The assumption being naturally the stereotype that the majority of unemployed people are also drunkards or gamblers.

 

Nearly - you forgot to add that they all smoke, own iPhones and Sky subscriptions and have 2 weeks in Teneriffe every year

 

Some
Yes, yes, yes, yes

 

Is the job of the government to help the people who need helping not those who have made living of the state a career choice? I resent the money the government takes from me given to people who have no desire to work. If government takes more and more to give these people not working money the taxed will vote by leaving. I see fair taxation as something that benefits the whole community and not just the people who twist the systems.

Your Labour party cannot just tax anything they see as making money as the Conservatives cannot allow the people at the high earn end find ways of not paying. To give an idea we pay 37.3% of the first ISK309 140,- or GBP1 550,- each month, with rising levels after that. We can have a discount of up to 8% for pensions. Our tax number is high but everyone pays and the idea is clean and simple, you earn money the government takes a share. Not like the UK where you earn money have a discount then pay tax and a health tax and after that there are ways to reduce what you pay. Asimple system is better and cheaper to administrate.

 

I echo what Yorkshire said - I intended this thread to be far wider - but to include if desired party politics - and I think it does just that. If we do not dream then our ambition will remain limited. I like and agree with a lot of Cologne's world - yet disagree absolutely that the Green's are remotely useful in taking us there.
I cannot understand how anyone would tolerate humiliating people - shall we give out benefits in the public square calling the names of the "sinners". ONe step from there to the stocks and debtors' prison.
The people some despise or think are frauds are actually just people like the rest of us. They were born into the world in the same way - and then seconds later their paths diverged through no credit or blame attached to them but due to the fortuitous or tragic backgrounds they come from.
I cannot accept a policy like the Green's - or others -that does not require people to work if they wish to receive handouts from others. In our society there needs to be a duty to do what you are able to do. Disability and other factors will affect that. A good state is one that fosters the ability of the ordinary person to be able to find gainful employment. Hopefully they will be able to work long enough hours on a decent enough hourly rate to then provide what they need. That is why zero hours contracts and a meaningful minimum wage need to be carefully attended. Nobody should be forced to go to a food bank - but if they refuse to take work or waste what little they have on other things that may have no option. The state cannot allow people to take from the public purse if they choose to do nothing. I still am puzzled by exactly who it is who uses food banks. Does welfare really not pay enough for food and basic accommodation? I also am still not convinced that food banks are not just a useful political football used especially by Labour to hit the Tories - it is absolutely in their interests to bump up numbers using them. But more than that I still do not understand the workings. How can you survive the other 362 days of the year if you can only go to a food bank on 3 days? It must mean those people struggle through on those days. Sorry to bang on about this one again but I honestly do not understand it. People should not go hungry though and somehow the state has to end this medieval practice.

 

Well put Leo.....

I do not have any truck myself in a handout mentality. ( I don't believe it is green policy...)

Unfortunately our society has led people to believe all is achievable... unless... or .... except...

I think the govt closure of the mines was a turning point for many people up north... and then people think society ... the 'social' owes them... It took away their means to live and so now it should pay them.

Then when the govt introduces things like 'bedroom tax' it alienates those who are not making ends meet even further.