Off Topic Political Debate

I don't see that as a problem at all - it would simply make small redress for a situation whereby, for 300 years, a country has had limited opportunity to have input into a system of government, a system that has seen others take advantage of it. The answer is simple really....

I'm not sure about PR. Yes it allows for a wider spread of parties within government - but look at Scotland's experience, where the leader of the Scottish Conservatives is merely a 'list mp' - came in as fourth choice in her constituency, with even a reduced % of the electorate voting for her. Strange really.

Equally strange is the apparent desire south of the border to disenfranchise Scotland, with continual bleatings about unfair & EVEL - all cries taken up by politicians more concerned about their own security than anything else, and totally ignoring the fact that SNP MPs do, and will continue to, have a history of mainly voting on matters that affect Scotland only. And as for the media frenzy whipped up by Westminster over 'SNP Nationalists bad' and 'EVEL good' - words fail me - can people not see that EVEL represents nothing more than English Nationalism?

 

The SNP's very existence is to disenfranchise themselves. The English as a whole supported the union. The English will increasingly demand an answer to EVEL as they have a legitimate grievance. It is blatantly unfair for Scottish MP's to vote on issues which do not effect their constituencies. Sturgeon has already threatened to vote on subjects traditionally left solely to the English. She knows exactly what the repercussions will be, to stir up ill feeling between the two nations then highlight the anti Scottish comments and actions to promote independence.

 

Is Scotland moving to being a one party state? It seems the way things are going that almost all of the MPs will be SNP even though they are a minority. In the Scottish Parliament that is redressed somewhat by PR - but for non SNP voters in Scotland at UK elections at the moment they are going to be unrepresented.

 

You may just have redefined the word 'minority'. All we have to go on at the moment is a variety of polls which may or may not be representative of the true picture. All show a massive swing to the SNP, many show SNP at around 49%, some show the SNP at 52-54% - but all show the swing to be on a steadily upwards trajectory as voting day approaches. At the end of the day, those polls may or may not be accurate - we'll just have to wait and see.

I don't understand your point about non SNP voters being unrepresented - in the last UK election, didn't around 67% of non Tory voters end up unrepresented?

I'm adding this picture for no other reason than it may highlight the depth of feeling in Scotland. I originally thought it was a shot of Watford fans celebrating promotion yesterday in Watford High St - but it was taken in Paisley at an SNP rally yesterday afternoon, the seat of Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary who had a 16,000 majority in 2010 -



It seems to me that those 16,000 have changed allegiance...

 

Many thanks for taking me at my word, and I hope we get more feedback than mine. Obviously I am not going to tackle every single point you made in one post. Just a few questions: With regard to immigration first - I would like to see it pointed out more often that the UK is also a land of emigration. Circa 6 million British citizens live abroad - roughly the same number as that of foreigners living in the UK. If the UK restricts its immigration policies then they must expect others to do the same. Several other points you make look like a party political broadcast on behalf of the oil and weapons industries - the Green Party may be naive in some ways, they may also make mistakes which I would expect from a party which has no real experience in government. But they are at least asking the right questions. The UK. has a global commitment to reduce Carbon emissions to the level of the 1980s ie. a Carbon footprint of 2.2 tons per person per year. Where is there another party taking this theme seriously ? Or are you denying the existence of global warming and its consequences ? This is a far more important theme than your 'Global alliance against Islam`which sounds eerie to my ears. Are you classifying an entire religion here as criminal and basing your politics on that ? Do you not think that Britain has become a more dangerous place to live precisely because we marched into places like Iraq on the basis of America's lies ?

 

The last coalition government were actually well represented as they had over 58% of the votes.

 

I thought the average showed SNP at 45% which is not a majority. Even if they get over 51% of the vote though and become the majority it beggars belief if they get almost all the seats. Would you be happy with that if it were Labour or Conservatives in that position? Do you believe that two wrongs make a right? If almost all the seats are one party then their opponents are not represented. If I remember correctly the Conservatives in Scotland polled about 17% of the vote a few years back but got how many seats? Are you aware that the UK has been run by a coalition and not the Tories for the last 5 years? Try adding together the voting percentages of the coalition parties and you will find a significant majority. Also the 35% or so Labour voters were very well represented in Parliament - that does not look to be the upcoming situation for Scottish voters who will have to rely on English Tories and Labour to represent their views - and I strongly doubt that would satisfy them at all.
One thing I think you will agree with me on though is what a great shame the Yes campaign did not win. I cannot see Scotland ever again forming a positive role in the UK. The SNP are little Scotlanders. Everything that ever went wrong for Scotland (you trumpet the old 300 year garbage again) is apparently the fault of us wicked English.

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Without wishing to pre-empt any response from aberdeen - yes a large number of British citizens live abroad, I'd even put it at more than the 6 million you mention, unless you are referring to EU only? Having benefited greatly from it myself, I'd like to point out that many other countries already do have immigration restrictions anyway, one being where I'd say the largest British ex-pat population lives . When I left these shores in 1970 for Australia, it wasn't merely because I wanted to - there was a selection process to go through, even for the so called '£10 poms', and even though the country encouraged/welcomed most with open arms. That policy was stopped soon after and replaced with one that focussed on an applicant's ability to become a 'useful' contributor to, rather than a drain on, society. A polite way of saying you can come, but we won't fund you? Maybe, but in my opinion, a sensible one & one which I'm surprised britain hasn't adopted already.

 

There are enough policies swimming around from existing parties without me adding my 10

 

"Everything that ever went wrong for Scotland (you trumpet the old 300 year garbage again) is apparently the fault of us wicked English."

I'm glad you finally admit that Leo.

As to the issue of a one party state, that has almost been the case in Scotland since the beginnings of the Labour party - but you seem to forget one thing. The increased SNP support at a Westminster level is indicative of the frustration felt here and now at a system which doesn't cater for people's wishes, simply because of numbers. The SNP will, and have repeated this on countless occasions, look after the interests of all Scottish people at a Westminster level. The Scottish Gvt elections in 2016 will allow other parties to come into play at a local level - I really can't see the SNP being as successful next year as this, even though Labour appear to have lost all credibility. I expect the Greens to take over the mantle of second largest party in Scotland next year - no bad thing really.

 

Did anyone Clegg on the Andrew Marr show? He persistently refused to provide any meaningful red line which would prevent a new coalition with the Tories. Although Labour is the natural bed fellow with them they have been so intoxicated with power over the last 5 years they want more. I suspect their average voter has other ideas. They no longer want the protest vote, they are quite happy for the Greens to be the new bridesmaids.

 

Hmmmmm - I taught my kids never to blame others for things that go wrong.

Not really true - the Liberals (remember Jo Grimmond) were once well represented and even the Tories used to do better - it was just that Labour were the majority.
I understand the frustration Scottish people have with the UK - which is why I believe there should be a properly constituted and meaningful federal government for the UK. I wish the SNP were the SFP as I think many others in the UK would be tempted. Still not easy to solve some problems but far better than the mess we are in now

 

Cologne - I would like to post something about the Greens but I really struggle as their general blurb makes them seem as nice as Apple Pie and the American Way of Life !!!!!!!???. We all want a lovely fair society where you do not have to work hard if you don't want to and you look after the birds and the bees and the trees and so on. However that is not the world we live in and there is no way to transition from where we are now to their world. You only have to look at the damage done to people's lives all over the world by a simple harmful practice - unregulated sub prime lending - to realise that the world economy is too finely balanced to mess seriously with. If one were to try to actually implement a tiny part of the Green's strategy on say the Economy - millions if not billions of people would suffer in ways that make the last 5 years seem like a stroll in the park.
Reminds me of a book - Utopia I think it was called.

 

Leo, sorry to be a bit evasive here but can you be more precise into which particular policies of the Greens you are referring to. There is the Green Party of England and Wales, the Scottish Green Party, the German Green Party (of which I am a member) and many others in Europe who all belong to the European Greens. There are basic chore values which they all have in common - but also a lot of differences. I do not know the entire programme of the English Green Party so if you can direct me to the parts you find difficult then I will look at them as well. It is clear that a party which has never tasted power (The English Greens) will have some naivete about them, they will also make mistakes - but they are generally asking the right questions ie. Is an economy based upon perpetual growth sustainable in a World of limited resources ? Is there any other party which is taking global warming seriously ? Can we afford not to oppose things like TTIP etc. ? By the way I hope that the Apple pie you mentioned is made from organically grown English apples which were not brought by container ship or plane.

 

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The Greens with their high tax high spend anti austerity would be scary if they became a serious party. Thankfully they will probably only have one or two MP's after Thursday so completely irrelevant in the balance of power.

 

This the 'easy read' version.:

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/asset...een_Party_2015_General_Election_Manifesto.pdf



I am currently supporting the Green Party because it's ideals are most closely aligned with mine. I believe in a fairer world on every level. Sure they are very naïve in how they would raise monies etc and they will not govern BUT we need to take a stand for what we believe in. After years of voting Lib Dem and Labour etc etc.... I suggest we need a breath of fresh air in our politics.

If people really want an inclusive and fair community much of what the Greens say makes total sense.

I also believe ideals need to drive economics and not the other way round.

Incidentally I have paid off my mortgage, have no credit card debts and until retirement paid 40% tax. I have not hugged a tree since Glastonbury 1971 do not wear rope sandals or have a nose pin

The sort of bipartisan political system which says that the views of a minority are 'completely irrelevant' is not one I can now embrace. Given that Green party ideology is very much rooted on the best for all and the continued health of our planet I suggest that even for the most extreme politician there must be some sense in it.

 

I'm sure most politicians see lots of good ideas from the Greens unfortunately any party that is involved with serious decision making, as the Liberals have found out, is required to adopt a pragmatic workable fiscal policy.
Until they address this weakness in their manifesto they will be dismissed merely as a protest vote. I accept this is not their strength or main interest but you have to do the boring bits as well.

 

It is not necessary for a political party to cover all areas equally well. The Greens have never ruled alone in any country but always as part of a coalition, and coalition politics is the face of the future in the UK. What is missing from the one party you get from the other etc. In other countries with PR systems parties go into elections with policies which are earmarked as 'negotiable`and 'non negotiable' in the event of coalition. I myself vote twice in general elections in Germany (one for the candidate one for the party) and for 2 different parties. The Greens are able to function as a very effective pressure group influencing Labour politics from outside.

 

As previously outlined, due to the SNP effect, I don't see the UK's future necessarily linked to coalition. The UK is not likely to adopt a PR system so with our first past the post system the Greens are unlikely to seriously affect any major party's policies. The mathematics says it all, 1 or 2 MP's out of 650.