The July Cup!

[King Shergar]

Zen....Say we had a sprinter with a similar record to that of Black Caviar in Oz, one who has won Loads of G1s and was unbeaten, I know BC is a mare but if we had a stallion with that sort of record, he would be worth an absolute bomb at stud, worth even more than Sea The Stars, Galileo, Montjeu etc

Breeders want speed in the sires, they dont want stamina, so if any horse could dominate the sprints, and stand out from the rest, they would be worth alot more than a top middle distance horse, the problem is there hasn't been a horse who has stood out for years

 

[Zenyatta]

Zen....Say we had a sprinter with a similar record to that of Black Caviar in Oz, one who has won Loads of G1s and was unbeaten, I know BC is a mare but if we had a stallion with that sort of record, he would be worth an absolute bomb at stud, worth even more than Sea The Stars, Galileo, Montjeu etc

Breeders want speed in the sires, they dont want stamina, so if any horse could dominate the sprints, and stand out from the rest, they would be worth alot more than a top middle distance horse, the problem is there hasn't been a horse who has stood out for years

I don't think for a minute that they would be worth more than the middle distance champions. Breeder's may want speed in favour of stamina but this is relative. The overriding desire of breeders is surely not to breed the fastest horse. If you ask any breeder what race they want to win it is surely the Derby and the Arc, or the Eclipse, the International, the Guineas, etc. I don't think very many would come up with the Golden Jubilee or July Cup.

The fact that the sprints are less popular may be because we haven't had a true champion for a little while, and it may be because of the requirement for a good draw and luck in running. However i think they will always remain inferior to the middle distance horses.

It is a bit like Ted Walsh always says at Cheltenham. Big Buck's is a true legend and one of the best we've seen but nobody ever tries to breed a World Hurdle winner. They are the horses that aren't quick enough for the Champion and don't jump well enough for the Gold Cup. And that is not to detract from the achievements of the mighty Big Buck's in any way whatsoever. In this respect Dream Ahead was tried at a mile because it would have enabled him to race in more prestigious races. Connections were keen to try and get him to stay the trip. This seems to suggest that they didn't want a sprinter, but that is what they've got, and a very good one too. I remember reading an article by Tom Segal after the 2000 Guineas suggesting that Frankel would win any G1 at 6f but he'd never be allowed to take his chance because the races are nowhere near as desirable as the mile and 10f races he can contest now.

At the end of the day the game is about breeding, and breeding desirability is achieved through winning desirable races. In the UK, those desirable races are all between 8 and 12f.

 

[Tamerlo]

Zenyatta, a very informative and logical reply.
Another point worth making is that, although I felt Dream Ahead and Delegator had the class form of the race, it's too easy to go overboard at this stage.
After all, the winner beat placed horses who are Listed/Group 3 at best- and I can't think of many past July Cups where Hitchens would have been fighting out the finish.
I hope Dream Ahead does make a success of top sprints, but recent sprinters have tended show in-and-out form- and rarely string two top wins together.

 

[King Shergar]

Zenyatta.....As you know breeders believe the stamina comes from the dam, so they want as much speed from the sire as possible, So a sprinter that has dominated the division is an ideal stallion prospect. Let's say a sprinter was to win 6 G1s in a season just like STS, but over sprint trips, he would be worth far more as a stallion, the problem is no horse ever dominates the sprints. Why do you think Workforce is still in training, he is a slouch, and hasn't proved to have the gears over shorter, to be worth alot at stud

 

[King Shergar]

May I also add that the reason the sprints aren't held in the same prestige as middle distance races is because we never get a champion, if we had a horse like Dayjur again, people would warm to them

 

[Zenyatta]

I'm not suggesting that Dream Ahead is a champion as yet, but he has certainly shown far more potential than any other sprinter i have seen. His win on Saturday was very comfortable, against the best sprinters this country has to offer. It will be interesting to see how he fares when/and if he takes on the worlds best. Unfortunately these clashes might never materialise (unless Black Caviar comes to Royal Ascot) because the firm ground abroad (except in France) is likely to prevent him being allowed to take his chance.

And with repsect SHergar, i have to disagree. Do you seriously believe that a horse that had won the Kings Stand, Golden Jubilee, July Cup, Maurice De Gheest, Sprint Cup and Abbaye would have been valued more at stud than Sea The Stars? I just can't see it personally.

Take Starspangledbanner and Rip Van Winkle, both from the same ownership and both to stud in 2011. Starspangled banner a 4 time G1 winning sprinter standing for 15k. Rip Van Winkle a 3 time G1 winning middle distancer standing for 20k (both figures in Euros). Might not be the best example ever but at least it illustrates the point: middle distance horses are more valuable stallion prospects than sprinters.

 

[King Shergar]

Zenyatta.....Rip Van Winkle is a son of Galileo, the best stallion in the world. So regardless of what he achieved on the track, his stud value has already taken a substantial boost, so no that's not realy a fair comparison

 

[QuarterMoonII]

In the unlikely event that Dream Ahead cleans up in the major sprints for the rest of this season, his stud value will not be hugely improved. Breeders will view him as a stallion for producing precocious two-year-olds and being by Diktat out of a Cadeaux Genereux mare he will not spark the imagination as a great out-cross except possibly on the other side of The Pond. Diktat is so in demand that he now stands in Spain.

If Breeders take into account the fact that he does not go on fast ground they will have to be hoping that he does not pass that trait along to his progeny or that global warming leads to lots of wet summers!

Whilst Dream Ahead did win cosily on Saturday, the race was run at a very moderate pace and turned into a two furlong dash to the line. I would assume that Deauville will be his next stop to try and emulate his father unless they think that he will get his ground at Goodwood and look to take on Frankel again. His dad also won the Haydock Sprint Cup. I wonder if they might let him take his chance over seven furlongs in the Prix de la Forêt on Arc Sunday.

 

[Ron]

Shergar, looking at Dayjur's record, I don't think the stud fees of a top sprinter will ever be anything like a top middle distance champion. Agreed dams are a significant influence on stamina, Urban Sea being an exceptional example, but there aren't many dams around with that much influence. Even with an exceptional influence for stamina, Urban Sea was never put to a sprinter (as far as I know).

For top middle distance horses, the speed influence from a sire seems to come from top milers, not sprinters. It would certainly have been interesting to see what might have been produced from a champion sprinter like Abernant, considered the best sprinter of all time, and Urban Sea. However, even the best sprinter of all time only produced G1 winners up to 8f. And Abernant was himself sired by a Derby winner.

It's interesting that you won't find many (if any) champion middle distance horses sired by a sprinter, and it's also interesting that many of the top racehorses and sires come from the Northern Dancer line. So presumably the sire has a considerable influence. There are always exceptions to the rule and, as we've seen some beautifully bred horses don't perform.

Fascinating subject, but where's Princess when you need her?

 

[NassauBoard]

I disagree Ron, sprinters stud fees are high if they are proven, Oasis Dream 85k, Pivotal 55k, Invincible Spirit 60k. Four of the top ten sires by prizemoney are sprinters (three mentioned and also Acclamation)

Oasis Dream has produced - Midday, Tuscan Evening, Sri Putra - the first two are very good middle distance horses, the latter has won over 1/2 million in prizemoney!

Pivotal produced - Sariska, Lawman, Megahertz, Golden Apples, Halfway To Heaven

Good sprint sires can produce good middle distance horses BUT they seldom get the support of breeding operations in the manner the middle distance horses do. I think it will be fascinating to see how Starspangledbanner does at stud.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

Ron, Dayjur has been pensioned off now but although he turned out to be a sprinter, his pedigree – Danzig (Northern Dancer) ex. Gold Beauty (Mr Prospector) ought to have made him quite valuable at Sheikh Hamdan’s Kentucky stud. The problem would have been that those two lines of breeding are prevalent in the USA so he was never going to demand the highest fees given that many other Northern Dancer/Mr Prospector lines offer proven stamina.

Sprint pedigrees are always going to do better in the USA (and probably Australia) because they do tend to breed for speed whereas here in Western Europe sprinters are generally cast offs that did not stay.

 

[Cyclonic]

Interesting that you should bring up the prospect of a sprinter not producing a middle distance horse Ron. This of course is not a thought of yours alone. I should imagine that it's the standard thinking over there. There is a thought that might have been missed here. The lack of top flight sprinting sires in the UK. We in Oz have long been able to breed quality G1 middle distance horses from sprinters. We've had 3 or 4 horses who can rightly lay claim to being the best horse in Australia since Phar Lap. Probably the one above all others to come the closest is Kingston Town, winner of 14 G1 races. He won 4 races at 6f and as a 3yo won from 6F to 2 miles. The 6f was a G2. In that season he won 6 G1 races from 10f to 2 miles.

He was bred from an outstanding sprinter Bletchingly who was very unsound. He won 4 of 5 taking the Flemington course record over 5f, stopping the clock at 56.8. Bletchingly's sire was the crack sprinter Biscay who was lightly raced, having only 8 starts for 6 wins.He was wickedly fast out of the stalls, and usually was never headed.

I'm sure that if I did an hours homework, I could come up with a host of other instances. I think that if the UK had Australia's past when it came to sprint stallions, you'd have no end of middle distance G1 winners who would have been produced along these lines.

 

[Ron]

Interesting Cyc, but you have said before that the southern hemi have not been able to match Europe for breeding middle distance horses.

 

[Cyclonic]

Yes that's right Ron, but one of the reasons is because we're late bloomers when it comes to off shore racing. We've had a handful of travellers pre 2003. Since then we've sent sprinters to Asia and the UK. But for reasons that have always mystified me, we've been a bit tardy when it come s to sending middle distances abroad. I'm pretty certain that if we took half a dozen of our top flight stayers to the UK, we'd surprise a lot of people. They might not get the press that SYT gets, but I believe we'd have the same type of success that our sprinters have had.

 

[NassauBoard]

My views on the race -

The thing that impressed me the most about the ride was that Turner didn't panic when doors were closing. The way she put the horse through a gap in a strong and decisive manner was very impressive and she got the timings perfect too, extending away inside the last 100yds.

The horse is very good and I personally see him as the first top grade 'sprinter' that we have had in the last few years. He is a bull of a horse and to me he looks like the sorts Australian trainers have been sending over to conquer Royal Ascot in the past.

I think he has the potential to be the next Pivotal or Oasis Dream, both on and off the course.


If he stays in training next year then I can't wait for that big day!!!

 

[King Shergar]

I think the argument about the time being slow is a little unfair, are people suggesting that off a faster pace DA wouldn't have won?

To me he looked like he had bundles in the tank crossing the line, and there may be stamina doubts about him over further, but I don't see any stamina problems over 6f regardless of how much pace, all you have to do is watch last years middle park in testing conditions.

You could take the lack of pace in the July Cup as a positive, surely off a slower pace he would need to have a better turn of foot, so races over 5f like the Nunthorpe and the Abbaye shouldn't be a problem. Had it been a fast pace in the July Cup and he won staying on then fair enough, but he won purely because of his electric turn of foot, without even needing the whip.

At the end of the day a horse will only go as fast as the horses making the running, so the slow time was something DA had no control over

 

[Ron]

At the end of the day a horse will only go as fast as the horses making the running, so the slow time was something DA had no control over

Very true. A slow time does not mean a horse can't run faster. A fast time does actually prove that the horse can run that fast.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

Nass, whilst Oasis Dream himself was a sprinter like his father Green Desert, his success as a stallion at producing middle distance performers comes from the heavy influence of middle distance stallions in his pedigree. On the distaff side his grandparents, Dancing Brave and Bahamian, trace back their families through lines including Lyphard, Northern Dancer, Mill Reef, Never Bend, Sir Gaylord, Busted, Neartic and Crepello. Green Desert’s lines also include Northern Dancer, Neartic, Never Bend, Sir Gaylord and his son Sir Ivor. In the breeding shed all these names make Oasis Dream a very desirable cross and the achievements of his progeny enhance this further.

I do not know much about Dream Ahead’s owner, but he may think that keeping his horse in training and going globetrotting might be more lucrative than packing him off to stud at the end of the year. Maybe they could look at the Global Sprint Challenge for him at four.

 

[Janabelle13]

Considering at the start of the race the horses appeared to be crawling, the time of the race is not that bad.

 

[GDC]

Had a payout from my Bet 365 account that i could not fathom! Only through going down this thread that i realised I backed Dream Ahead (only £15 EW at 12s) on the day after i posted he was my first choice selection at the time!

Ron: Sure sign i am getting older i cannot remember making the bet and i haven't got it in my diary which is tres unusual!! Ah well, must have had a winner and just gone for it without realisiing always a bonus to be 'given' dosh without realising what for !

Why did i waste money on Regal Parade on the day LOL