Off Topic Political Debate

Sorry not read / digested much of the above ...My only comments are that Russel Brand comes across as "unwell" and a fool . For the record I'm voting Conservative because I'm not very bright, don't care about the wider world and most importantly The Sun Newspaper has told me to !

 

A labour govt of this era would not do that..... they have said as much

The only options would be:
State soft spending e.g social welfare and health
or corporate taxation

and of course Cameroon has nailed his colours to the mast on those fronts too...

yes.... very bad policy... and simply a vote catcher... from a promise to a pledge to a law!

 

Public spending needs to fall dramatically anyway, the state is too large.

In my family I have too recent examples of the state spending money the UK does not have.

1. My mother in law has been a carer for her husband in the last few years. Recently they have been given an extra £80 a week which has had absolutely no effect to their lives whatsoever apart from leaving more cash to their children eventually.

2. A doctor treating some sores on my father in law's bald head informed him that he might be able claim for that. When he confirmed that he had served some time in Egypt after world war 2 a doctor visited him at home on a Sunday to confirm that he qualified for the award.

The doctor was probably paid in excess of £500 and he was awarded £2,000. He said it was impossible for the sores to have been caused in Egypt as they always wore their caps!! He blamed the many visits to Spain on their holidays.

The social security system was never intentioned to be a moneypot.

 

I'm going to regret this but what the hell.
Who was your father in law able to claim from? And are you aware that you have just told us all he may have committed fraud?

 

I'm sure any normal person would be unable to connect the two instances but there is a presumption that you claim for almost anything as the money is there to have.

He did not seek this payment it was recommended by a doctor at his local surgery and it was confirmed by another 'specialist' doctor. Unless the specialist came up with the 'correct' diagnosis I doubt he would have been paid for his visit. How on earth could he prove that the sores were due to sun damage 60 years previously. Perhaps the local practice had a rake off as well?

There are too many rackets going on with our money.

 

The welfare state.

 

Why are people still considering a labour SNP win and move into governance, it's not a coalition with any legs. THe result will be a Conservative minority government even with lib dem alliance thrown in. As such we will be moving into a period where I see another election in less than a couple of years as the SNP will ensure that no meaningfull legislation is able to pass as they block everything in the interest of creating chaos and frustration to achieve the ultimate goal of independence by exclusion. Alternative nobody seems to have considered is a Conservative-Labour alliance, in these days anything is possible and as I say I see end result as Conservative/libdem minority government with a further move to the right of Labour to support any really important legislation but an annoying Scottish midge in the form of SNP constantly making a nuisance of itself. How this will affect investment is a worry, how it will affect the governmental bodies is probably quite well with Conservative policy moderated by need for Labour agreement on legislation we could see a pretty good compromise between efficiency and spending.

 

I think there are 1000s of instance of people struggling to make ends meet because of change's to the regs etc ..

how about bedroom tax for example.... making anyone receiving benefits literally a second class citizen... and that includes many thousands with severe disabilities

right wing people always look to the flaws in a system to justify withdrawing it reducing it etc etc... we are NOT a poor country..


It is a tragedy that those who seek to maximise their own wealth at the expense of others own or control the media that then lead people to believe in the politics of fear

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/24/suic-f24.html

I will always support a system that is best for ALL of us and promotes both equality and opportunity.. and not the right wing pyramid of excellence ... all focussed on getting to the top at the expense of those less able

In a truly fair society those with more will share with those with less and everyone benefits...

 

Just seen online it is a NHS / War Pension Agency compensation for skin cancer for those who served in the armed forces before 6th April 2005. Not sure how you can go back 60 years though.

 

Bloody hell - that is bizarre

 

How rich is Britain to give all this money away?

 

It is OUR money.. we can choose how to spend it....

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-benefits-cuts-starving-soldier-3923771

That FAILED this man

 

It is probably Chinese money that we have borrowed.

 

It would be interesting to know how many people vote for the party that they believe will be for their gain, and how many vote for the party that they think will be best for the country. Wherever you look you see governments becoming unpopular because individuals are hoping for more, and they will go towards parties that promise more, but cannot deliver. Our president made promises that he would have the young into apprenticeships before he was elected. He failed to fix the economy, so last year there were 60,000 less, not more. His latest promise is that he will create 500,000 more by 2017, yet I know people who need to take a couple on, but are frightened to death of the tax and social costs involved so will not. Of course no one believes him anymore and so the extremists are made to sound normal. As soon as governments try to take more money and spend it on our behalf, then you find out just how inefficient they are at doing it.

 

I cannot believe that you would use a story from the Mirror to make an argument. We have no knowledge of the truth of the story or what lies behind it - what next will someone drag some trash from the Mail to make a right wing point?

I have a postal vote so need to decide in the next day or two who to vote for. I find myself choosing by elimination.
UKIP sound quite reasonable on some issues when you listen carefully to Farrage. Who does not think that the EU policy that allows unlimited movement of people across Europe no matter what social problems it causes is ridiculous? Who disagrees that having an Australian style points system that allows people into the country no matter what their gender, race, religion or anything else but are needed by the UK is a good idea. Yet lurking behind some reasonable sounding facade I believe most UKIP members harbour dark motives on race religion, sex etc.
Greens are fine as a nice little pressure group but I want a government not at best one or two MPs with nice ideas
At this stage of the economic recovery I cannot trust Labour to let economics come first and ensure recovery as speedily as possible - with whatever austerity is required - and not go back to spending and borrowing too early.
Conservative - I just do not like the philosophy that they hold - I am not sure even today that the Tories would bring in an NHS or a Welfare State if one did not already exist. It is one thing to urge people to stand on their own feet but quite another to walk past someone who is struggling to get off the ground.
Liberals - still for me the natural resting place - a mix of social ideals together with some economic realism and pragmatism - but are they too damaged by their part in the coalition?
It would be nice to feel I could vote FOR something positive rather than against political messes

 

If everyone was properly educated / informed ..and forced to vote ...Britain would be a permanently socialist country and we would not have the ridiculous wealth inequality which still exists as a remnant of a historical feudal system . The greedy idiot spawn of the upper classes still rule over us . ..BUT not for much longer , as it's not just football clubs which now have foreign owners . The Britain of my childhood has been sold off ..Very few assets now belong to "us". So the future will be different which ever party comes to power. ( this is not a rallying call for the tory muppet Nigel Farage ) .
Horny Yorkie , there's nowt wrong with the pursuit of excellence.. I'm fully aware Blair "Education , education , education "was unpopular ...however, his government served my family well ...my kids attended second bottom primary school in Bucks , but both daughters got into Oxford and lad going to hopefully start his Phd via another top uni next year...all aiming to become research scientists in their respective fields ..and thankfully like their ol'man still have left of centre views .
This world is far from perfect and even if the nasty party do retain power , the sun will still continue to shine and every 10 years or so Watford will have a good season to distract us .

 

People criticise Superhorn on here - I hope the same will be said of the rant above. What basis is there to believe that "if everyone was properly educated etc Britain would be permanently socialist? Has this thread not already even established that the term socialist has been bandied about so much that it has very little meaning left if any? The Britain of your childhood has been sold off - how does that affect the ordinary person - so now Russians own what ex Norman conqueror descendants used to own? Which assets of "ours" have been sold off? Nationalised industries that were loss making? Who now owns most of them? Pension funds where millions of our pensions are held? My kids went to Ricky school and two on to Oxford - no thanks to Blair (whose son failed to get into Oxford at the same interview when mine did) - but to the ordinary school system that had existed for long before Blair? Greedy idiot spawn? Is that people who have degrees from Oxbridge - did they not earn those degrees or were they given out because they were rich spawn? If so how come the Royal Family never manage to get decent degrees despite their privilege, wealth and private education?

It is arguments like these that make me distrust the left wing - too often I simply read of hatred, jealousy and prejudice against those who are rich. The left wing policies I support are those that make sure that people down on their luck are helped back on their feet, that everyone should have a roof over their head and nobody need live without food,clothing and basic human rights. I do not support the state taking money from other basically similar people who have been either more fortunate or more careful with their lives and giving it to people who "know their rights". We all fundamentally should be prepared to work for what we want and need and a good state is one that enables us to do that. The envy that thinks we can cure society's ills by taking 90% away from the super-rich and the bankers is no answer to how a decent society should be constructed.

 

Leo, the claim that 'if everyone were properly educated and forced to vote that it would automatically lead to Socialism' is not so bizarre as you make it out to be. It is interesting that the argument given against the extension of the vote in the 19th Century was primarily the Capitalists belief that universal suffrage would automatically lead to Socialism. Capitalism is based upon widely held beliefs that certain myths are true.
Myth 1. 'Anyone who works hard enough can become rich`. Is not supported by any real statistical data - yes, some people do rise the social ladder, but the majority don't. Social mobility is not high enough to be able to prove this, and if you look at the social origins of the richest 10% then their wealth has mostly come from inheritance.
Myth 2. Capitalism creates wealth and prosperity for all through the 'trickle down' effect. In other words if you allow the rich to become richer then this money will trickle down - no evidence for this whatsoever. There is more evidence for the Keynesian belief in strengthening the spending power of the base of the pyramid. Money which reaches the top of the pyramid simply disappears.
Myth 3. Capitalism = Freedom. Absolutely untrue in that it money simply erects borders ie. with and without - freedom becomes a commodity within this system - those with have it, and those without don't.
Myth 4. Capitalism = Democracy. Or rather the belief that democracy can only exist under Capitalism. Absolutely the reverse, true democracy can only come from the base of the pyramid, and can only be said to exist if all areas of society, including the workplace are run according to democratic principles. This can only exist if workers own their own means of production. Does the monopolism of eg. TTIP, or the dictatorship of World Bank have anything to do with democracy - no. Democracy is the arch enemy of Capitalism
Myth 5. Elections between alternating parties = democracy. Again a fallacy - rather more a recognition that ideas are only coming from the 1% of the population who are members of political parties. Voting yay or nay once every 5 years does not make a democracy.
Myth 6. There is no alternative to Capitalism. An idea which is meant to intimidate - to prevent the discussion of alternatives, of which there are plenty.
Myth 7 (The last one I can think of but I am sure that there are others) The idea that growth has no limits. Leading to the problem that only centrally planned systems will be able to rise to the challenge of global warming - Capitalism and its beloved free market have no answers to this other than the denial of its existence.

I think that altogether there is enough 'mythology' here - enough to suggest that any thinking man would look for 'alternatives'.