Don't know about being a sham, Seb was pritty good in his Toro Rosso days. Won a race, raced up the field many times, taking on Hamilton at Brazil. The kids still only 24, so he hasn't really peaked yet, that usually comes around 27-30. Horner also said Sebastian had a KERS problem towards the end.
Every time team orders occur there is a lot of criticism, this should be no exception. His lead is so great that this incidence was not necessary IMO, and I'm sure others will see this as unnecessary too.
That doesn't wash. At all. It's not a matter of us thinking RBR were going to be different. It's a matter of us being told by Horner and Meteschitz that they would be different. I have no problem with Ferrari employing team orders in Germany last year (I have a MASSIVE problem with the FIA not punishing them but...) because Ferrari has never claimed to be anything other than what they are. I have a problem with being lied to by ****houses like Horner and Mateschitz. I have a problem with a team professing to be sporting and fair and then defecating all over the sport.
There's some right sanctimonious twats crawling out of the woodwork. McLaren did the exact same thing at Turkey last year. If you look down the WDC standings Kobayashi would currently be leading if you removed teams/drivers who've been implicated in team orders in recent years. As far as they go this is a relatively mild one, and a call every team would've made in similar circumstances. Once again it's bitter fanboys looking for any excuse to belittle Vettel's achievements. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.
Fair point but he has a choice in what he says and how he says it, like any employee. I've been in the position where I have to defend something I don't believe in and there are ways of maintaining your integrity. What Horner did today was lie to us.
I agree with you, he's very good but his team and much of the media are touting him as being greater than he is (except when he's in front). As for Horner saying he had a KERS problem, well, how can we believe him now? He's just lying again, making excuses to cover the cracks in the myth that Sebastian is perfect.
I do not think people have a problem so much with the out of context use of team orders more the fact that is was perhaps unnecessary given the size of Vettel's lead in the WDC and because of Red Bull previously saying they do not use team orders and they are only in F1 for the sport.
But we all got sucked into though didn't we? This forum has got a bit quiet after this race, it might be because of team orders... This isn't about who wins the WDC, it's about how big will the gap be towards the end, Mark can either be part of that "team victory" or will he burn his bridges? Back to Daniel though.... Is it by pure chance that Ricciardo being put into F1 with Red Bull money, at the time Mark refuses to take team orders? Helmut Marko and Co, must of predicted this to happen and I think we could see him replaced sooner than later me thinks. True, but maybe Horner will release telemetry to proove it?
Fair enough about the second point. But Vettel's lead doesn't come into it, they were only going to lose constructors points by allowing them to battle on the final lap. Even if Vettel was third and asked to back away from Webber (whether that would happen is a completely different debate) I'd fully back the decision.
Very true, but to be called a "sanctimonious twat" for pointing out the lies surrounding it is ****ed up.
Exactly! Vettel's lead is such those points are insignificant. And last season Horner was righteously boasting that there were no team orders at Red Bull. My guess is that he didn't trust Vettel not to do something stupid if Webber passed. If Horner cares about team harmony, he really got it wrong today, just as he did several times last season. They really do spoil the boy.
Surprise, surprise - Seb's KERS is working! On a more serious note, it occurred to me that RBR don't want Webber to beat Vettel because it will spur Webber to better, more challenging performances for the rest of the season; he's the only other man with THAT car. Can't have that happening, can they?
As a Mod AG, I think that was a highly inappropriate thing to say. Isn't a Mod supposed to foster and maintain a certain level of civil debate and goodwill amongst the forum rather than posting abusive comments?
I think the mods have had a tough day, dealing with people. They make mistakes and they should be allowed to make mistakes, they are at the end of the day doing a high stress and pressure job.
