John Barnes says being black has damaged his career as a manager

many corporate employers in the UK would avoid you like a plague if you've been involvd in a racism case against a former employer too, even if you won!

 

Denying racism - Elite Discourse. I have read some of this kind of discourse on this thread actually.
http://www.discourses.org/OldArticles/Denying racism - Elite discourse and racism.pdf

 

This could go on and on.

People on both sides of the argument are talking themselves in circles.

It would seem likely that there is some racism in football.
There is probabaly sexism as well and other issues as they are issues from society itself.

Did Barnes not get jobs because he is black? Maybe.
Did Barnes not get jobs because he is not regarded as a good manager? Maybe.
Did Barnes not get jobs because he didn't sell himself compared to other managers in interviews? Maybe.

Should he have gone on TV moaning about something that he cannot prove? Probably not, surely there are better ways for him to fight what he feels is a flaw within the football world.

 

Oversimplification. If you are tired of the subject don't read the thread or close it you lilly livered soab

 

Can't close it anymore.

I think that simplification is needed as the point maybe getting lost. There are huge leaps being made on both sides of the argument.
I'd like to see racism stamped out of all society and if that is ever to happen then people need to learn to fight it in the correct way, empowering minorities, educating people who have a passion in a certain area other than the blame and moan tactic being used by some in the football world at the moment.

 

Well at least there has been much progress in the UK

The US tho..
Another shooting, and this time someone recorded it, you can see the cop plant his taser next to the body and in his report he claimed the guy took his taser so he shot him (8times in the back) because the cop, who is trained to handle these situations "feared for his life".

America's institutional racism allows the cops to do this and get away repeatedly because well, black lives don;'t matter in America.

Thankfully with all the Michael Brown attention amongst other racist killings, this cop is going down for murder as a token gesture and ONLY because the video is so damning

 

Discrimination of not just race has existed in football more or less since it became professional, It took the bigots at Glasgow Rangers well over 100 years to employ a Catholic player,It took the death of Justin Fashanu to highlight homophobia in the game.

The game is a better place these days but not perfect, it probably never will be and sporadic examples of why it isn't will hit the headlines from time to time.

 

Did you see the programme this thread refers to? It's from the ITV Sports Life Stories series. Barnes was the latest subject, it followed his sporting life and literally 2 minutes of the entire programme was his answer to a question put to him about why he felt he hadn't gone further in management. The newspaper headlines - one of which I used for the title simply because I C&P'd the OP - made more of it than was actually in the programme, like they do with a lot of things - not much of a story - sensational headline.

 

Yes I agree, he has mentioned it before and is not making a huge deal of it. My main point is that others have mentioned it before the programme and since. My second post explains my feelings better than that simplified post.

 

Move along, nothing to see in he....on hang on, my bad, just the 430 comments of racism

 

I take your point about 'blame and moan' but I don't think Barnes is guilty of that here. He's put a lot of time and effort in to raising awareness and the way he powerfully handled the racism shown towards him as a player demonstrates his view - he's living it, I guess he knows a lot more about it than the theorists.

 

Would it be in bad taste to say the only way to stop racism is if we killed all the people who aren't white? problem solved!.

In all honesty, this racism exists in our society and unfortunately, only through education and having a broad range of experiences can we over come it. In the past, it was overt racism and now we've tried to eradicate that, there is only so much to tackle covert racism. Just like you will never get rid of murderers, psychos, homaphobia, greedy capitalists racism is another trait that unfortunately humans have.

the argument here is two fold:

1. racism in general in the sport. Short of implementing ideas of the Rooney rule, this will not eradicate racism and if a chairman doesn't want to hire a black (or any other ethnicity) man he won't even if you force them to interview. Short of introducing a quota, how can you force a club to hire a manager that is black (unless there was a quota around senior roles).

2. The criticism most of us on this forum are giving out to Barnes. Their is a recurring theme here and this is he has failed. He may be championing the cause for black managers getting more chances and that is worthy of applaud. However, he has undermined that by using himself as an example of this when he has failed at 2 clubs, thereby looking like sour grapes. Yes racism may play a part in coaches being hired or not but what the rest of us is trying to say is that the main factor in deciding whether a man gets a job or not is whether they are competent enough at their job and/or have shown a proven track record. Most of are arguing 2 things:
a) that racism only plays a small part in whether somebody gets a job, it is on their competency. If barnes had done a good job he would be able to find work easy peasy
b) What are you suggesting to eradicate this racism that is hidden?

I would argue that it would be harder for someone not within the football game to get a job as a coach manager whatever within the game than a minority in the game who has contacts with who they have played with and has a track record.

 

This!

Except the first sentence, which is shocking and (presumably) meant as a joke

 

I know the bold bit is only a joke but if there were only white people you'd still get racism between the white 'races' Mediterraneans, the Nordics and Alpines. .... maybe!

You make some good points. I think you misunderstand when you say Barnes undermined the argument by using himself - he used himself because the programme was about his sporting life and he was asked directly why he hadn't gone further in management. I think that required a personal answer, don't you?

a] lots of would-be managers can't get a first job so their competency hasn't yet been established also some of those who have done a job badly, have secured job after job thereafter.
b] It's hard to eradicate the hidden therefore that question should maybe replaced by the questions - how do people become racist in the first place and how can we eradicate that?

 

They become racist because they are taught to be racist, and we eradicate it by educating children that racism is wrong, this must be hammered into them by all media.
Like I said ages ago, the US Hip hop culture influence on children these days ensures that the next generation of would be citizens are sure to be far less racist than the current crop of elders.

 

I think if he was to further the cause he would have said something like, i don't want to make this about myself as i think it may undermine the cause but i think black people find it harder to get jobs. However, i understand it would be a hard thing to say and in the heat of the moment if this is how he truly feels then he is quite rightly allowed to say it.

a) I think that applies to all races, its always very hard to get that first job. I think their needs to be more statistics on black managers applying for coaching roles and working their way up. I think the statistical samples are too small but am willing to concede maybe there needs to be a quota on senior coaches if people feel that strong against it. I still think connections would play a far larger part (If drogba, or essien or anyone asked to be part of the coaching staff under mourinho or at chelsea i don't think they would be turned down).
b) that is a question for society. I know having lived in London i'm used to many races, out in the sticks where you do not have that ethnic mixing people only hear what is in the news and without having experienced mixing with other races, it's probably something that will forever remain

 

''a) I think that applies to all races,'' - yeh you're right and it's why I didn't say 'black managers....'
b) people will seek out differences, it seems it's part of human nature. If we were all one race,one colour, then religion, region, social status etc. etc. would be used.

 

Not quite m'lad. That will only combat the explicit racism. Most kids are taught racism is bad and schools are very multicultural but little has changed. The social rules and PC now keep racism from the social forum. Look online though where people feel anonymous and the racism is everywhere!.

I have said, you have explicit racism, which is clear cut racism and easily identifyable even to the racist. That's the minority.

much much more common and prevalent is the discourse type of racism where one deludes themself into thinking it is not racism, and in fact people can be racist and not conscious of it.

This type of racism or bigotry can be more of a subconscious thing and because it is adverse to our fairness a conflict occurs and this is resolved by reclassifying the racism in the conscious mind as something like "truth" ect. For example, "I am not racist but.." is just the kind of discourse because any non racist statement does not need to be preceeded by that precursive.

The "I am not racist but" is far more commmonly thought than said, it's how one might reconcile racist feelings with the social rules (shared morality).

Racism is not even understood by most, at least from a psyc angle, myself included, but when you dig into it you begin to see that it's far more common than almost anyone will admit.

 

Bump.


Why are the BBC determined to rub Barnes's nose in it, after their first article on this subject they repeat the dosage, only this time they've opened a comments section.

please log in to view this image

John Barnes says black managers don't get many second chances


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31970841

And nearly 3 weeks ago

please log in to view this image

John Barnes: Black managers struggle to find a new job


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32112666

Since the first article other black ex-players and managers have given their opinion on the subject and Barnes isn't the main focus of the latest one, Viv Anderson and Brendan Batson are.
Can't see why they couldn't have done their homework for the first article and saved the trouble of doing a second, unless they're happy with some of the stick Barnes and other black managers are getting in the comments section.

 

Daft suggestion that mate, the later piece is a detailed look at the actual facts and has brought in a number of black managers in the game to comment.