John Barnes says being black has damaged his career as a manager

You have literally just accused carlthejackal of not believing racism exists in football because he challenged you.

 

No I haven't proved Barnes point for pete's sake. You are really hard work.

How many times have I got to say that I believe that racism exists in football among owners, fans and even players !

To make it absolutely clear so that even a 10 year old can understand:

1. I think like most owners that Barnes was rubbish as a manager and he damaged his reputation.

2. His non employment had nothing to do with his being black but everything to do his ability as a manager (perceived or real).

3. People choosing to give Pulis a job over Barnes is because they believe Pulis can do a better job than Barnes.

 

I questioned you because you said it was money driven and not down to race at all. If you do think there is hidden racism in football how can you be so certain it didn't play a part in black managers - one of which is Barnes - not getting more chances? You can't say race didn't play a part when we simply don't know.

 

You're unbelievable. How do you so consistently see what isn't there?

Let me ask you - which areas do you believe racism exists in football?

 

Again, Yes, there is racism
BUT money is the over riding factor in this sport for sure.
That is unarguable.

 

So you didnt just ask carlthejackal if he believes there is no racism in football because he challenged your assertion about the Barnes and Pulis comparison?
Because the post is right there?
Are you okay JB? Have you taken any head trauma in the last week?

 

You are now being obtuse and arguing just for the sake of arguing. It is Barnes who started it by saying he didn't get a job because he is black. All I am saying is that he was rubbish as a manager and to put his unemployment as a manager to him being black is a huge leap. In his case, it is just likely that the owners thought he was too rubbsih to take a punt on. Thats it. I'm done with this thread.

 

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Check your pm's

 

In your view, which areas of football does racism exist?

 

He said it should be 'investigated' when you pointed out that an investigation would achieve nothing as nothing was provable. He then attacked your point without offering what he actually meant by that. He's backed himself into a corner here and the crux of it is that he started out defending a kopite, and he's ploughed on regardless, even if it means intimating posters are racist. I'd leave him to it if I was you as you'll get nowhere with him.

 

One doesn't need to prove individual cases if there is a demographic indicator. If 95% of black people were out of work and find it hard to get jobs, even without proving any single individual case, that is enough indication of probable racism. You can't claim any one individual is racist but you sure as **** know you have a problem.

I don't know the stats so I wouldn't have a clue about the problem, or if it is not a problem. Someone has obviously looked into it if the discussion has made it's way this far into the public forum. Barnes doesn't strike me as the bitter race card playing type anyways. I reserve that tag for those that make false claims as they are usually those with a chip on their shoulder who expect to see racism at every turn.

Barnes has obviously worked a good few years now and found it hard getting a job when other managers as **** as he can get jobs.

You'll have the usual split opinions with those that agree, without knowing the figures ect and those that won't agree, yet they also don't know the figures and in one case, a person has been outright dismissive of the claim because he played for Liverpool, and that same person has been dismissive of the possibility and iis inclined to go with "race card" because well, they proscribe to that stereotype which is tragically ironic given the subject

 

Great well balanced post Sisu - echoes my stance on the matter as well, especially your first sentence.

Without proof it's impossible to be certain either way, which is why I come back to my point that unless we allow for the possibility that racism is present - unconscious or otherwise - it may continue being used as a factor in job selection. I don't think Barnes is the first black ex-player to mention it and I'm guessing he won't be the last.

 

Also one might want to question the motives of anyone who just dismisses the possibility out of hand like, as if racism doesn't exist in the UK, in this case one particular poster is dismissive probably solely based on who he played for, and that person will deny that is a factor, which is sad cos it's so ****ing obvious.

It's no small secret that there is much racism in the upper echelons of society, it's a stinnk leftover from the empire days but the same revulsion is reserved for the poor too, not just black people or indian people. Those sorts are club owners and if there is a problem, which I am saying is "possible", then it is there.

 

100% true.
My point is, there is nothing we can do about it.
No amount of investigating is going to uncover or change anything.
Racism is NOT footballs problem, it is societies problem and society needs to deal with it, and imo HAS been dealing with it.
You WILL NOT cure this ingrained, covert, bigoted, racist belief structure in these old grey haired suits, no more than you can "cure" a homosexual into being straight.
We need to educate kids in tolerance and bide our time and eventually it will go away.

 

One should not set out to prove the impossible anyway and certainly it should not be shelved because of said impossibility of proving individual cases. What you do is change the rules to combat such predujices. This has happened in employment laws in general, though it has not resolved the issue entirely it has made it harder to exclude groups based on ethnic origin.

 

Agree completely

 

Careful now, we might be accused of playing the race card

 

If you don't think there's anything that can be done then we're defeated before we start. If black players had of had that mind set and let racism stop them, we'd have none, or very few in the game. Any investigation needs to include asking black and minority players why they are choosing not to go into management. That will surely 'uncover' something, which in turn can then be 'changed'. It doesn't help the players of Barnes era get jobs now, but it can alter the future.

 

Do you know what else is sad but true, if the FA were using this thread to select people for one of their 'independent panels' , you and I [and the other 3 or 4 I mentioned earlier in the thread] wouldn't get on it because we're open to the possibility that there might be a problem.

 

Related to this matter I would say. Many see racism as explicit racism, an out and out I don't like "insert ethnic group".

Plus the BBC, some of teir journalism and MUCH of the daily Mail's journalism incites racism without actually breaking racism laws. Explained away as "I was only writing the truth". Elite discourse is what that is. You can spot it a mile away, "Us British are not racist" < is elite discourse.

This kind of racism is far more common.
Worth a gander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversive_racism