John Barnes says being black has damaged his career as a manager

Let me try and explain. I thought after reading the article people would fall into one of the following three very general groups:

A. Barnes wasn't denied jobs because of race....................... everybody else
B. Barnes was denied jobs because of race...........................nobody
C. Barnes may have been denied jobs because of race........Page, Dan, Jimmy and me

If you are an A, you don't see there's a problem and by not allowing for the possibility that there is one, you are harming the process of eradicating it because you've denied it exists.

If you are a B, you are likely to find racism where it doesn't exist, as well as where it does, but risk creating a boy who cried wolf situation. You cease to be believed and this harms the fight against racism because resources are spent looking in the wrong places and real racism can still thrive.

If you are a C, you aren't sure about the claim but are open to the possibility that there may be discrimination going on. While those of us in this group [and those mentioned can correct me if I'm wrong] probably all think 'come on John, it was. because of your performance at Celtic' - we are still open to the fact that he could have a point and so would welcome some sort of investigation into his claim.

So to clarify - as there are no B's - my comment ''Going by some of the comments on here I'd say that racism is going to be with us for some time." is for the A's with explanation above. I have never said or suggested having this view makes you a racist, it doesn't. But I stand by my assertion that if your comments have been that Barnes wasn't denied jobs because of being black, then the fight against racism is being held back.

Look at any contentious situations our clubs have been involved in and the comments made on here and you'll find that people's opinions fall into the same 3 groups. Take the Ched Evans case for an example. Those who say definite yes or no without any evidence, hinder justice being served. We need more people who are C's, the 'maybe's'. because it's them who push for enquiries and investigations because of the uncertainties.

And mate I don't take it personally if you or anybody else disagrees with me. Having a difference of opinion doesn't alter who you are

 

Let me put it another way - racism is going to be with us for some time if you aren't prepared to investigate claims made about it..... as in ... comments on here dismissing it exists in the Barnes situation.

How on earth does that make a person a racist? They have neither promoted nor defended it ... but in dismissing it, run the risk of it not being looked into... which in turn means it's not being eradicated.... and will be with us for some time .........

 

Except no one as claimed racism doesn't exist in football so A doesn't have any names next to it. What has been said is, in Barnes' case, it's because he's a **** manager.

I think I should be in D; racism does still exist in football within a minority but that wasn't why Barnes didn't get another management job.

 

And if every claim is investigated racism will never be solved.

 

This is purely the Barnes situation and not racism in general. I, or any red hot LFC fan, could have claimed A and I bet there are some A's out there, just not on here You really think there aren't any people saying 'Barnes is 100% correct'' ??? I imagine there'll be quite a lot.

You have no evidence race didn't play a part so can't claim it's solely based because he was a poor manager. Look at it this way, how would you feel if a director at a club Barnes had applied to, came forward and said something like 'I blocked a move for Barnes because I didn't think a black manager was capable of the job at the time' [and no before you say it, it probably won't happen, but if it did how does the 'despicable' comment look then?

As you said before I'm not having a go at you personally mate.

 

You're right. Racism is unlikely ever to be solved but it doesn't mean we don't fight it. Blacks in America would still be unable to vote, live in certain areas etc etc if the fight had never started. There's a long, long way to go but at least let's try. Dismissing it, isn't an indication of us trying very hard is it?

 

Nobody - including Barnes himself, knows whether he wasn't considered for a particular job because of his skin colour.

But the idea that he was denied the opportunity to work in football management for 8 years because of racism is absolute bollocks, that's it in a nutshell

In terms of 'investigating' his claims, he's not ****ing made any specific claims, so that's a moot point. What it has prompted is a gander at the actual stats in general and they don't back up the kind of institutional racism he's intimating exists.

What's annoyed people is the way he's played the race card to excuse his lack of effort in seeking employment and his lack of self awareness as to why he might have been viewed as a crap choice to a decent club. This stance has been spun on this thread into a failure to appreciate the possibility that there's any racism in the game, which is both idiotic and offensive in equal measure

 

If a chairman said that then it would obviously be a disgrace and he or she would be rightly lambasted for it too. However, that as not happened in Barnes' case. He has a managerial record that isn't exactly glowing which is evidence towards why he's not had another job.

What Barnes is claiming would suggest that the vast majority of chairman are racist, do you think that is true?

 

Most chairmen are old, rich and white, so yes.

 

I don't know if you watched the programme referred to in the OP or listened to his subsequent radio interview were he clarified his comments. He said [I'm paraphrasing] - 'black or white, you do a bad job you get sacked. If club boards of director were racist they wouldn't have given me a job to start with. My contention is that black managers aren't given as long in the job to prove themselves or offered as many chances as their white counterparts'.

I can't say whether chairmen are racist or not but to be boring I will repeat that I allow for the possibility either way because I don't have the evidence to back me up. It could be cobblers, it could be a real problem I simply can't say definite yes or no.

 

If nothing else Barnes has highlighted the issue, if his allegations hit home with a few racially motivated people within the game I'm sure he'll feel the criticism he's received was with it.

 

So having a few quid and being over 50 makes you a racist by default?

What a ****ing moronic post

 

The majority of them? Yeah. Through no fault of their own but they're still racist, even if its just a subconscious thing. Look at Dave Whelan, he thought it was acceptable to call Chinese people "chingalings", and in his time it probably was. But things have changed now.

 

Can kinda see where you're coming from - the issue around racism is that unless you're explicitly saying something like 'you black so and so', it wont; be deemed as racism. There are a lot of people who are guilty of casual racism but nothing is done about it e.g. when you generalise most black players and say they look like rappers, or when you have a few Chinese players and ask which one is which. Whilst most of this is meant in jest (and context certainly plays its part) it is still racism and offensive.

 

Tobes please stop this at once, I cannot cope when I agree completely with you, it just feels wrong.

 

I think that's a dangerous path to continue on...

Any minority group in football (including gender, sexuality, religion, nationality or whatever else) can follow the same argument. You have no evidence to suggest that gender, sexuality, religion, nationality or whatever else didn't play a part, so we'll investigate it. Basically, anyone who doesn't get a job they're chasing should be able to contend the decision on the basis that they're not in a majority group.

In Barnes' case; there is evidence that he is/was a **** manager. There is no evidence that it was due to race. But does that mean we should continue searching and investigating what might be because one man believes otherwise? It would never end.

Resultingly, we'd have outrage and claims of discrimination everywhere until we eventually reach a point where quotas are enforced so that proportionally, minority groups are represented across the board. Then we come in to the issue of positive discrimination whereby people get positions based on the fact that they're in a minority group rather than because they're the most suited for the job - which is discrimination against the majority.

It is an absolute minefield.

What I do believe, however, is that no club in the modern world (I accept there are some countries still lagging behind) would turn down the opportunity to sign the best manager or player in the world if they had the chance. If Messi or Pep Guardiola were black, would some backwards chairman really decline them?

Back to Barnes; he took over Celtic with no qualifications or experience whatsoever and, unsurprisingly, failed. A man with no qualifications and one dire year's experience in a managerial capacity is obviously going to struggle to get further opportunities (lets not even talk about his embarrassing 'music career' or his cringeworthy stint as a pundit on 5 which I do remember regularly muting such was his unintelligible ramblings and monotonous voice - which obviously would only be seen as positive attributes for a manager).

I am certain that discrimination does exist in small parts of world football, but to search for it in every case where a black man doesn't get a job (or captaincy as Sol Campbell also claimed) would lead us far away from where we want to end up.

 

Dave Whelan is not representative of the majority of football league Chairmen though (neither do I think he's a racist btw, as there's a distinct difference between using terms that are now not considered to be appropriate and being genuinely racist and discriminating against people in every day life)

Football Chairmen are generally middle aged businessmen these days, the likes of Ashley, Lerner and your fella.

 

Barnes Is a **** manager that's why he's unemployed

 

Correct, there then follows a backlash so that genuine claims will be dismissed as yet another bandwagon jumper. As much as i did love the guy, Barnes' claim has done more harm than good to the cause.

 

So how in the hell do you propose they investigate it?
What you are talking about is a complete waste of time.
Go to all the chairman and say "Hey did you refuse Barnesy a job cos he is black?"
Even if they did they aren't gonna say yes are they?
So why waste time focusing on Barnes' rubbish at all?
Can I categorically state he definitely has never been denied a job because of race? No.
Is there a way of finding out? No
So why waste everyone's time?

You are saying that anyone who doesnt agree with Barnes is "ignoring racism".
I say anyone who agree's with Barnes is ignoring racism in favour of furthering one mans agenda of bitterness.