Except for the examples that I gave of players whose wages didn't decrease, who by complete coincidence remained in the Premier League (via a blatant bit of shenanigans in Lampard's case Adel Taarabt had two years on his contract when he was willing to take a pay cut to join Milan Yaya Toure has two years on his contract, yet his agent was talking about his willingness to take a pay cut to join Inter not that long ago Chris Samba was on £100k a week at QPR, he's on £49k a week at Dinamo Moscow - and he left QPR six months into his contract A player leaving the Premier League would certainly not harm their international ambitions: Owen Hargreaves wasn't an outcast at Bayern, Paul Ince wasn't an outcast at Inter, Chris Waddle wasn't an outcast at Marseilles, David Platt wasn't an outcast at Sampdoria, Gazza wasn't an outcast at Rangers - and more than anything else, David Beckham wasn't an outcast at LA Galaxy. On the flip side to that argument, plenty of players' international ambitions have been hurt by staying put, for example Ryan Shawcross and Fabian Delph are perpetually overlooked because they play for the "wrong" club. Do you honestly believe that Delph joining, for the sake of argument, Fiorentina would make him less likely to be called up than staying at Villa? As for saying it's best for various national teams if all their players stayed in the same league, that's proven wrong by looking at the squads for last years' World Cup semi finalists: Argentina: 3 domestic, 20 overseas Brazil: 4 domestic, 19 overseas Germany: 16 domestic, 7 overseas Holland: 10 domestic, 13 overseas If Jose Maria Basanta didn't rule himself out of contention for Argentina's squad by playing in the Mexican league, why would playing in Ligue 1 or the Eredivisie rule out an English player out of contention?
Samba took a pay cut to return to a league where he was racially abused? ..although if It was for the lure of Russian women then I can understand.
Free trade, like democratic republicanism, is an awful system except when compared to its alternatives.The changes will have the effect of making English players more coddled than they are. I can already see the articles written in the wake of future international failures after the changes take effect. English players get a free ride in the PL. How can we expect them to compete with players raised in harder schools? A better plan would be to require clubs to donate a portion of their revenue to supporting non-club related youth programs in England. The biggest problem seems to be the lack of knowledgeable youth coaches compared to places like the Netherlands and Germany. What standout British players of recent times haven’t been unusually big, strong or fast? Coaches need to understand the game to find an Iniesta. I could spot a Bale.
I've already said this, but that's not taking a pay cut. You'd have to leave a job to do that and they no longer had one. Their contracts had expired. Taarabt didn't move and still hasn't, but it would've been financially sensible for him to leave. His career's in the ****ter right now. Toure hasn't moved, either. Perhaps they weren't as willing as their agents suggested they were? Samba took a pay cut to join QPR, then rejoined Anzhi when they were relegated. He didn't take a pay cut. He may have been forced to take one shortly after that, joining Dynamo after Anzhi's financial problems. You're talking about big players that certainly weren't cutting their wages and were often joining big clubs. The likes of Waddle and Platt left when English football was in a bad state, too. As for Delph joining Fiorentina, how's that worked out for Micah Richards? Good player, but well down the pecking order. I didn't say that. Strong leagues keep the majority of their own homegrown players. I didn't say that this was good or bad for the national side.
I haven't been following Italian football much this year so unsure if Rchards lack of game time is due to form or the usual (injury) but next season Ravel Morrison will be representing English footballers in Italy. Lazio may be thinking they have found the new Gazza.
So why didn't Tevez's wages dramatically decrease? Or Lapard's? Or Gallas'? Or Friedel's? Mario Balotelli took a pay cut to move from City to Milan Solomon Kalou took a pay cut to move from Chelsea to Lille Shinji Kagawa took a pay cut to move from Man Utd to Dortmund 49 is a lower number than 100, yes? That's a pay cut. No, what I'm talking about is that your saying that an English player moving abroad could hurt their international ambitions is simply untrue, as there are numerous examples of the exact opposite happening. When a player can get into the England side despite playing in the SPL or MLS, that says their chances are not harmed at all - and in several of the examples I listed, English football was not in "a bad state", i.e. Hargreaves at Bayern, Ince at Inter, or Beckham at LA Galaxy. As for Micah Richards, he was frozen out of the team by Capello and Hodgson - while playing for the decidedly English club of Manchester City. "The same is true of a number of other nations, to a slightly lesser extent. The Italian squad is full of players from Serie A, barring four exceptions." Also, it has to be said Italy are currently in the doldrums: they used to produce top talent on a regular basis, as a cursory look at their teams from 1990-2006 will show, but where is the new Buffon, Canavarro, Nesta, Maldini, Pirlo, Gatusso, Baggio or Totti? The number of Premier League players spirited away by Barca and Factitious over the years says otherwise. Indeed, twenty years ago the Eredivisie was a strong league - before several of the league's top talent in the league were spirited away by the various top clubs of Serie A in a remarkably short space of time, and before long La Liga and the Premier League joined in.
I have no idea how you're failing to understand this, to be honest. Bob is a barista at Starbucks and earns £7.61 p/h. He ****s up and gets the sack. Bob then decides to get a job at McDonalds. He now earns £5.55 p/h. Bob hasn't voluntarily taken a pay cut. Balotelli's wages increased when he joined Milan. Kalou was released by Chelsea, so he had a wage of 0 when he signed for Lille. I've said this already, but I've seen nothing to suggest that Kagawa's wages reduced when he rejoined Dortmund. Samba didn't join Dynamo from QPR. What he's being paid there is irrelevant. Could doesn't mean will. A player joining a high profile club or a fully established international joining a big side is unlikely to see too much damage. They're also unlikely to be taking a pay-cut. Hargreaves and Ince joined massive clubs, whereas Beckham is ****ing Beckham and was undroppable, even when he became ****. I'm surprised that he's not still being selected, just to add some more unnecessary caps to his record. None of that contradicts what I said. And it's no longer a strong league. I'm talking in the present. Barca and Real don't sign many homegrown Premier League players and they certainly don't sign a majority of them. None of that contradicts what I said.
I have no idea how you're failing to understand this. Bob the barista earns £7.61 p/h at Starbucks, and fulfills the terms of his contract No longer contracted to Starbucks, Bob the barista gets a job at Cafe Nero, who pay him £7.81 p/a Change "Bob the barista" for "Carlos Tevez", and you'll have an example of someone who was out of contract at a club, yet had a pay raise when moving to another one - one of many players to do this within the Premier League. It really is not that difficult to understand. Balotelli's wages did not increase when he joined Milan Why didn't Kalou demand his Chelsea salary when joining Lille? Compare his wages on Football Maanager 2014 to FM15, you'll see the notable drop. And, because you seem to be oblivious to this... TEVEZ'S WAGES INCREASED WHEN HE JOINED MAN CITY DESPITE BEING OUT OF CONTRACT. STOP PRETENDING I HAVEN'T SAID THIS TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES. Only because it completely invalidates what you're saying. No, a long history of players moving abroad yet not losing their England place says that they won't. Bari and Sampdoria were never "massive clubs" even during the height of Serie A's bubble economy, they were the equivalent of Everton at the time, yet Platt was still getting into the England side. All but four of Italy's squad play in Serie A. Only four of Brazil's squad play in Brazil's Serie A. That contradicts what you;re saying very well, thank you. How did the Eredivisie stop being a strong league? By failing to hold on to their best players - which asks the question, at which point did they stop being a strong league? Was it when Edgar Davids moved to Serie A in 1996, or was it when Patrick Kluivert moved in 1997? Similarly, what stopped Serie A being a strong league: Parma dropping from top four contenders to relegation contenders when Parmalat went bust, Juventus' demotion as part of Calciopoli...or was it just there was a lot more money sloshing about in the Premier League at the exact same time? There's no players in the Barca or Factitious squad that was poached from another strong league? What about... Premier League: Bale Bundesliga: Kroos, Khedira, ter-Stegen Ligue 1: Benzema, Varane Also, HG players staying in their domestic league CAN be bad for the national side. Here's a few examples: Jack Rodwell, Scott Sinclair, Steve Sidwell. They all elected to stay in the Premier League, joining the biggest clubs - and their careers went backwards because they hardly got a game in their time there, while Scott Parker's career was set back a couple of years by his stint at Chelsea. Also, take this into account - every single member of the San Marino national team play in the Sammarese league. Is that a strong league?
It's also irrelevant. You're attempting to show examples of players leaving their own domestic leagues to join clubs abroad and willingly taking a pay cut. Bob's not being offered any money by his original employer. He doesn't have the option to stay with that company. Balotelli's wages went up, as his taxes dropped massively. Kalou couldn't demand the same salary at Lille, because his stock had dropped massively. Tevez wasn't out of contract when he joined City and you've just brought him up. The previous quote was about Kagawa. The Argentinian was owned by his agents. Samba didn't join Dynamo from QPR. I assume you're not debating that, so I'm not sure what you think your point is. Some do, some don't. Platt was well established in the England team and joined a superior league, where he continued to play well. No, it doesn't. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying. You're arguing with a point that I haven't made. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. When did I say that? I didn't say that it was good or bad for the national side, only that it happens.
Okay, let me see if I've got this straight: it's relevant when you're using a deeply flawed argument, but when I expose just how deeply flawed that argument is - citing examples - then it's irrelevant? Balotelli's weekly wage at City was more than it was at Milan. Get over it. Kalou's stock certainly hadn't dropped: he was frozen out of the Chelsea squad under AVB, but under Di Matteo was getting playing regularly - so, if anything, his stock went up in half a season (just like Adebayor's last season, for another AVB-related example), and that's before considering that in two years at Lille and after his move to Hertha, his wages still aren't at the level they were at when he was at Chelsea even though he was showing the same form at Lille that he was in his best seasons at Chelsea Man Utd signed Tevez to a two-year contract in August 2007, a contract that ended on June 30th 2009. Tevez signed for City on 14th July 2009. Who was employing him in those two weeks? Nobody was, making him a free agent - a free agent who got a pay hoke when joining City. As for Kagawa, I've explained that one - Prozone Recruiter supplies the data not just to Sports Interactive for the Football Manager games, but also clubs in various league. Everton have been using them since 2008, for example. He's playing in the Russian league for a lot less money than he was in the Premier League. Steve McManaman tanked at Factitious, yet that didn't prevent him getting into the England squad. Platt tanked at Juventus, barely getting any time on the pitch - but still got picked for England on a regular basis. "Do many English players go abroad? No. It's generally not worth doing so, both because they'd be paid less and because it could hurt their international ambitions. The same is true of a number of other nations, to a slightly lesser extent. The Italian squad is full of players from Serie A, barring four exceptions. The homegrown rule probably hurts any chance of this happening, as individual players become more valuable in one league than every other." I countered this assertion by pointing out the numerous flaws in its logic, namely: i.) The current Italian side is the worst its been in decades, so is it really good for the team to stay in Serie A when they're not developing to be at the level of the likes of Buffon, Maldini, Cannavarro, Pirlo, Gatusso, Baggio et al ii.) Numerous international teams seem to be doing very well despite the core of their team not playing in their domestic league, such as all four of last years' World Cup semi-finalists iii.) Plenty of the cannon fodder of international football have teams based within their domestic league iv.) Saying that players become valuable in a league because of their nationality simply doesn't work, such as the examples of English players rotting on the benches of Chelsea and City It's quite simple: saying that a league is or isn't strong misses the point entirely, and misses it by a huge margin. Using the Eredivisie as the perfect example, it used to be that a player would spend several years playing for Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord, they would develop as players, and move on. In the mid-90s there was an exodus of players to Serie A (Seedorf in 1995, Davids and Reiziger in 1996, Overmars and Kluivert in 1997, Stam and Zenden in 1998, van der Saar and both De Boers in 1999), but all of them spent at least five years at their Eredivisie clubs before moving on. That's simply not the case these days: Robben spent two years at PSV before moving to Chelsea, Van Persie spent three at Feyenoord before moving to Arsenal, and so on. While this may have weakened the Eredivisie, it hasn't weakened the Dutch national team. Similar things can be said for several other leagues across Europe, notably Ligue 1 and the Primeira Liga. If a player is good enough to play abroad, why don't they play abroad? For example, Tom Huddlestone would be a good fit for plenty of sides in Europe's top leagues, not least in Serie A where there's a long history of deep lying playmakers such as Pirlo or Veron having great success. And let's be brutally honest, he's not going to be getting an England call-up playing for Hull, as there's a long held belief that the shirt a player wears every weekend is an indicator of whether they should wear an England shirt. So if Huddlestone moved to a Serie A club that qualified for European football next season (so, sticking a pin in the current table, let's say Napoli) would that be worse for his England credentials than playing for Hull? "Barca and Real don't sign many homegrown Premier League players and they certainly don't sign a majority of them." That's the problem with the Premier League being this self-contained bubble: it can prevent a player from developing. There's the obvious examples of a player that follows the money and spends a couple of seasons counting it while they sit on the bench, such as Rodwell et al, but also the issue that staying put can be counter productive to their own game. Goin back to what I said about Huddlestone, he'd be a great fit on the continent as the game is played at the sort of pace that is perfect for his game - but in the Premier League, which places power and pace above all, his strengths are often negated not by the opposition but the tactics of his own team. Yes, there's plenty of players who would get found out remarkably quick if they moved abroad - McManaman was when he was in Spain, Shearer regularly was in international tournaments - but that goes with the territory for pretty much any player moving abroad, yet that doesn't stop players switching one European league for another, let alone swapping a South American league for a European one. But when it comes to the idea of an English player moving abroad to further their careers and potentially improve their game, they're like a reverse Nigel Farage, demanding less emigration from Britain. And, frankly, if they do worry that moving to Hamburg, or Lyon, or Fiorentina or whoever means they'd have to take a pay cut, there's one simple response to that: to ask why they place their bank balance growing ahead of their growing as a player. Priorities, FFS!
Scotland's Ryan Gauld: British youngsters 'need lifestyle change' http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32069992
Beckham, Owen and McManaman have all been criticised at various points for the faults in their game or lack of technical ability, yet no denying when playing for the most demanding club in world football, they have performed and held their own. It would been great to see a player like Scholes play abroad, just to see how someone with his ability would have fitted in with the great foreign teams and if Charlie Adam moves to Spain and is a success that will leave players with no excuses about if they can handle more technical leagues!
There are a couple of fatal problems with this analogy.... 1 - Nobody employed by Starbucks is called Bob. If he went by 'Bob' before he would be Roberto upon starting 2 - I'm not sure Starbucks have baristas. Aren't they just coffee-machine-button-pushers?
McManaman illustrates the rise of Real. In his day they were what Juventus are now: the best team in the league, or thereabouts, but probably not as strong as the best teams in the other top leagues. He was good enough to start for them, but not for England. Imagine any starter on Real today not walking into the England team (except for Casillas, I suppose). If you get a chance, listen to him call El Classico. Most games, his favorite expression is "very disappointing", a phrase which sums up his commentary. But for El Classico, he gets liquored up and becomes great fun, Groundskeeper Willie as Realista.
Arsene Wenger and Tony Pulis question FA English player reforms http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32163883 Unsurprisingly, Pulis agrees (with me) that these plans are flawed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32159749 (video).
Wanting your country to get better doesn't mean that person (or persons) understands the best way to achieve this, but yes the plans are flawed and if it needs a Welshman or Frenchman to say this, then you would have to be ignorant not to take on their comments, especially when they make valid points. But good luck to the FA commission as In ten years time we could we saying Danny Mills and Greg Dyke changed English football for the better
