John Barnes says being black has damaged his career as a manager

Another good point

 

Chris Ramsey Feb 2015:

Racism in football has been parked, not eliminated,” “People are clever at finding a way to hide racism.
“I haven’t heard as much racist chanting as when I first came into the game [in 1978]. The only thing we can actually do is increase awareness. But it is not just a football problem. It is a social problem.
“Football mirrors life but football has been slow to change. The rest of society has moved quicker. Prejudice against black people playing football has gone. But there are many other parts of football that need to come up to speed with the rest of the world.”

 

So basically, around 4% of UEFA B and UEFA A holders are black and 6% of FA UEFA pro licence holders are black or ethnic minority. As you pointed out earlier theres around 3.5% in senior positions. That doesn't seem like a large discrepancy to me so looking at the facts, i'll reiterate my point that there is no systematic racism in the sport

 

It depends what you're looking for doesn't it?

Do you compare those in management roles with population % or players in the game %? It would seem more sensible to compare it with BME players rather than the general population because managers are going to come out of the game rather than the general population. BME professional players in England make up between 25% - 40% of all players so does that make the proportional representation in coaching roles a little low?

Is it that BME players just don't want to go into coaching? If that's the case, why don't they go into coaching - because they know they won't get a job after doing their badges or other reasons? People have said on here that if you're good enough you'll get the job, so do we conclude then that blacks with qualifications aren't good enough because logic follows that if they were considered good enough, there are enough numbers of blacks with the required qualifications to have more representation than they currently do.

 

I thought we just spoke about the discrepancy is small and that theres a 2/3% difference.

As for your BME players going into coaching, someone earlier raised a good point, that you cannot compare the current proportion of black players to the numbers in management. Firstly you should be comparing 40-15 years ago and the number of black players then as that was the generation that crossed the line into management.

Secondly, Most of the managers i hear from nowadays (i profess just pl and championship) are ex players who played at a high level. I don't have any figures but i bet the large number of black players nowadays in the top 2 leagues are foreign players and not British. Ineivitably they probably will choose to coach in the top 4 tiers in England after they finish their careers in this country.

The only way to find out why there are not enough BME players going into coaching is to do a survey with them and find out why without asking leading questions. Whether that happens is another case but even then that would be a perception of racism from BME players rather than what is actually happening i.e. clubs/chairmans being racist and not employing them.

 

You're making the mistake of comparing the number of Black players in the game TODAY - which is roughly 25%, with the %age currently in senior management roles.

It's like looking at the British population and failing to realise that despite 14% of the total population being BME, only 5% of the over 60's are BME, but over 25% of under 16's are.

As time goes by more BME's will make their way into coaching roles in football and all other sports, but what needs to change is the number who enter the qualification path, as that's the issue.

Suggesting that BME's could be put off even trying due to perceived racism that would limit their future employment opportunities is pure supposition backed up by nothing at all. You could say that about any profession in the land, and it would be equally untrue.

What is guaranteed to stop career progression is a failure to try and gain the qualifications, anyone using racism as an excuse for not bothering would be a weak backed excuse imo.

 

too true tobes... some people need to stand up and just lead. those who get the qualifiactions... ffs it would cost rio less than one weeks wages to pay for all his badges if he cards he could sponsor 100 people to get thier up to national level and be a leader.

same of barnes frankly.

 

Pretty much what I said earlier but you put it in a much better way

 

The bottom line is this:

The owners want success. They are not stupid and they are at the end of the day businessmen. So success (staying in the league/promotion/cup runs) = money

If the owners belive a manager will bring success they will employ him: whether he is black, blue, brown or orange. These people are ruthless ****ers and as far as money is concerned they are colour blind.

So if Im an owner of a club, I would think: " Is Barnes going to get me promotion or keep us in that league" ? If the answer is yes, I would employ him. If no then no chance. This is not some civil servant post (with due respect to the civil service). If I thought the club's fortunes and/or survival (and therefore mine) depended on that man or woman then they could be martians for all I care..

 

You said the discrepancy is small - but you got that based on % of general population - as it stands it's a bit meaningless comparing it to the general population so I would never do that and can't go along with that. But I do agree that numbers of BME in management won't increase at the rate that minority players have been brought into the game so we shouldn't expect there to be a large % until the numbers filter through the system. That said, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from black ex-players saying they haven't been given an equally fair go at management opportunities. I want to hear what they [Barnes in this instance because tonight's programme is about him] have to say rather than dismiss it out of hand from my safe, white, never-been-racially-discriminated-against world.

 

Yeah but Martians are **** at football and will run the club into the ground, I don't want to come across as racist but the Martians piss me off the little green bastards!

 

Barnes experience isn't current for one. He can speak about racism he was on the wrong end of during his playing career and probably abuse he was subjected to whilst a manager - from so-called supporters no doubt.

But what can he say with any credibility about his failure to land another job? Is he going to cite specific incidents where he feels he was discriminated against in the interiew process? Or is he just going to talk generically and put his failure to land another plum job down to his skin colour without anything tangible to back that up? I'd place a large wager on it being the latter.

 

You just can't say that - without any knowledge of what really goes on in the recruitment process. It's a nice ideal but are they colour blind, how do we really know?

If Barnes believes he was discriminated against, why are so many on here ready to doubt him? Especially as the programme hasn't been on yet. Will there be revelations or just his perceptions - I don't know. As he's said in the past hidden racism is just that, proof is hard to come by. Personally, I have no idea one way or the other if he was or wasn't discriminated against but my default mode isn't to disbelieve.

Chris Hughton twice last year got disgusting racist tweets after losing games. If they weren't there in black and white for everyone to see, and we only had his word for it, I get the sense that people would brush that off as all his imagination as well.

 

cos his record as a manager was poor.

he landed the celtic job at the wrong time with wrong experience on back of dalglish and that set his career trajectory.

IMO that sets him up.

the contrast is ince who did a good early job so got a bigger one which was quite tough as it turned out but he's made bad choices since like notts co which was dodgy as f and going back to mk dons then taking on blackpool who'd nothing as a club in set up terms.

6 jobs there so... again good or bad?

 

That intimates that people on here are 'hidden racists' eager to dispell the notion and I for one resent that intimation.

 

Not out of character at all. What that all shows is his views on racism are always based on his own vested interest.

 

There are some situations where there is clearly a process and where racial discrimination can be identified. For example, in the public sector, say in some government offices a black employee who is senior, and the best candidate for promotion (experience and qualification) is passed over for a more junior less qualified white employee, this is clear case of discrimination (which was not uncommon about 40-50 years ago here in the Uk and other parts of the world). This would be unaccepatble nowadays and that service will be hauled over the coals for this. And quite rightly too.

But If I own a football club and I need to recruit a good manager to run my club. Do I need to have recuitment process? I might decide. Stuff the recruitment process (advertising, short listing, interviews etc): I will headhunt Mr X and offer him £15 million/year. Is this action a racist one even though I am as racist as they come?

When the organisation is public, we have the right to ensure that proper procedures are in place to avoid racism. When it is private, the owner/s can employ who they want.

 

Celtic was too big, too soon no doubt about it but an 8 year wait for another job interview, come on he wasn't that bad. It's another 'role models' situation really isn't it. If black managers are successful, it will encourage more to go for their badges. If they're not getting past the first hurdle it won't encourage others to try as they feel defeated before they even start. Similarly, I'm sure if there was a female football coach in men's football, it would encourage more women to follow - perish the thought.

 

Thats a really sexist comment...

 

Who said he waited 8 years for an interview?

......and if that's true it would point to him not applying for many jobs ffs.

He was damaged goods after Celtic and no big club was going to take him after that **** up. I'm certain a lower league club would have taken a punt on him though, as Tranmere eventually did, but I would suggest that he was probably not prepared to lower his sights to that level - until he got to the point of bankrupcy that is.......................in 2009