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Off Topic Great Britain General Election May 7th 2015.

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by LuisDiazgamechanger, Mar 30, 2015.

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  1. saintanton

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    Bit of a generalisation there, Treb.
    I'd imagine that's true of some, but not all.
    And I completely agree with Sisu, that the real drain on the economy is the mega-rich somehow forgetting to pay billions in tax than the few benefit frauds with their (relatively) paltry amounts.
     
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  2. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

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    unfortunately the media have joe public believing, and they do believe this, that the 18 year old pot smoker who cant be arsed or the alcoholic makes up the majority of people on benefits. The truth is the opposite is the case.

    The queston is why the media does this.. because the Eton boys are scapegoating for their elite bretherin
     
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  3. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

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    Blehh schkidy

    Economics is power.. banks are economy, owners of the banks therefor dictate economy, if the crash taught us nothing else it taught us that. Tis the way it is, it's about time we cottoned on to the fact.

    Who's driving austerity? The ECB and IMF, where do they get their money?

    All of the great crashes were engineered. It's a way for those with the most money to absorb the middle class wealth but newer still it is a way to transfer my money and yours, to their bank accounts. They then use this to buy tangible goods and stocks.

    All the US banks that were given billions to stimulate the economy, you know what they did, they speculated on food with the cash, UK banks do similar, driving the price of food up. <doh>

    #epicscam
     
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  4. Tobes

    Tobes Warden
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    For every Mr A, there's at least 2 who are career dole wallers though, with their sense of entitlement and mistaken thought process that the World owes them a living, and that the mythical "State" should constantly provide for their fecklessness.

    The mid '00's proved that point, when we should have been at virtual full employment, but instead ended up importing unskilled labour from Eastern Europe because our own couldn't be arsed.

    I agree that the opposite end of the spectrum deserves just as much focus and resolve to tackle it, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that everyone is like Mr A.
     
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  5. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    It's true of most (not all). I've seen it first hand and if you ask a lot of headteachers who work in deprived areas many will say the attitude of the parents is their biggest problem. If parents don't value their child's education, then how will the children? As Sisu says, education is the bedrock of any progressive civilised nation. Who needs it the most - well we all do, but particularly those very deprived children I'm talking about. I WANT those children to have an education and do well so they can lift themselves out of a vicious circle of deprivation and hopelessness. So do all those in education. But there is an apathy towards it by those who seem to see it as a "right" rather than as a privilege.

    BTW I totally agree with Sisu that the megarich tax-dodgers are the country's biggest drain on the economy. I am in no way talking about those on benefits sponging off the system. This is a different issue altogether.
     
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  6. saintanton

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    I looked into this a while ago. I don't have any more up to date figures but I doubt they're radically different.
    The 2011 figures showed that benefit fraud was estimated at £3.4bn. However ,£16bn of ring-fenced benefits available went unclaimed.
    For the same period there was an estimated £120bn or more lost to tax dodging of one form or another.
    Whilst nobody should excuse the professional benefits claimants, and they should be pursued, their damage to the economy is vastly over-stated, and the media rabble-rousing against them is divisive and unjust.
     
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  7. saintanton

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    I was born to a poor working-class family in a two-up, two-down terraced house in Liverpool (within spittin' distance of Goodison Park, to make things worse <laugh>). My dad, an intelligent though poorly educated bloke, was partially paralysed at work ( he was a linesman in the GPO) and had to make do with a series of menial jobs that he hated in order to get by. My mum worked all her life in a time when few mothers did.
    I had a good education born of a post war realisation that it is, or should be, a right for all, because it actually benefits the nation as a whole. A lot of underprivileged children with great potential might otherwise slip through the net.
    This long term benefit philosophy has gradually been eroded by a series of educational and political tinkerers throughout the years since, looking for quick results and hindered by short-term, narrow economical considerations.
    All systems will have their abusers, and there is nothing wrong with trying to weed them out, but condemning the whole system because of the actions of a few is chucking the baby out with the bathwater.
     
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  8. Tobes

    Tobes Warden
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    It is a right though mate and has been since 1870, when the Govt took over the responsibility for education from the Church.

    Every child in this country has the right to the same level of education.

    The problem is apathy towards life in general, not the education system, in fact many kids fight against it, as they're taught that the 'system' is against them.
     
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  9. organic red

    organic red Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff Saint <ok>

    Out of interest,are these official government figures or from elsewhere?
     
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  10. saintanton

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    I honestly can't remember where they were from, though it was obviously not from the Daily Mail<laugh>.
    It was a while ago I looked into it after a debate with some friends. I wrote the figures down to show them ( I was surprised myself), which is why I still had them. I probably bookmarked the site, but have changed computers since.
    It was some sort of education- based website analysing and simplifying economic issues.

    The £16bn unclaimed benefits figure was actually covered in the press at the time, I seem to remember.
     
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  11. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    I think it comes down to attitude. My parents were working class and traditional (probably a bit too traditional) but always wanted their children to have a good education so that we wouldn't have to go through the hardships they went through. But we have children in schools who have no ambition, no real interest in bettering themselves, the attitude of the parents is "it's the schools job to educate not mine". What's worse is that while this is happening, you have the middle-classes throwing money to push their children up through the system and I can guarantee you, a decade from now the gap between the well-off and those destined for unskilled labour will have widened. That is the real concern, not "who's on benefits and who's not". My anger/frustration is aimed at the apathy of parents from deprived areas who perpetuate this vicious cycle of underachievement and indifference towards pushing their children to excel. Many of the children in these areas have not ventured outside their local community, they have zero life experience, many have never visited anything more than the local Asda and many never see the seaside. They are passive. I'm talking about children from white, deprived areas, minority deprived areas, the story is the same. Schools and teachers in such areas work twice as hard as those who work in schools in the suburbs, to match those children's progress and attainment. Much of this is down to the attitude of parents sadly. It's as if they need educating as much as the children, but in their case it's learning about the importance of having an education.
     
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  12. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Education is a right and so it should be. But to appreciate it, you should considerate it a privilege. What I mean by that is if you look at countries (especially those that are developing) you have to pay for it. You should look at that and consider yourself privileged to live in a country where you receive it for free.
     
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  13. organic red

    organic red Well-Known Member

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    Yeah,I remember hearing years back about the unclaimed benefits figure and being surprised by it.
    Its all a great example of government/media manipulation, playing with peoples minds and emotions.
    I still get involved in conversations with folk regarding benefit fraud and try to show the other side of the debate,so its good to
    have some figures as ammo <laugh>
    I don't like people abusing the benefits system and agree they should be weeded out,but the big money involves corporate tax evasion
     
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  14. saintanton

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    It benefits the country as a whole to have a well-educated population. And it isn't free, everyone pays for it indirectly.
     
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  15. saintanton

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    It's a powerful tool. My daughter is as socially aware as they come (she even gives up her Christmas Day some years to work in a soup-kitchen, ffs) but even she has been swayed by the constant scapegoating that goes on in the media. We've had some, shall we say, "interesting" conversations on the matter. :)
     
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  16. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    As I've said earlier, that's not always seen. You and I know it isn't free but not everyone appreciates that. We have to distinguish between those who see that and those who don't. Also, all my previous posts have said that unfortunately, it isn't benefiting the country as a whole for the reasons mentioned. Provision doesn't always equate to benefit. It's the same for most public services including the health service and police service
     
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  17. Germlands Nozzer

    Germlands Nozzer Well-Known Member

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    Good figures. I just can't believe that benefits fraud is as big a problem as is made out by some sections of the media; the numbers involved are just too small for a start. That said, there tends to be a distinct lack of numbers in such debates which makes it difficult to reach informed conclusions.

    While here, I will also point out that I take any tax evasion figures with a distinct pinch of salt.
     
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  18. saintanton

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    Vested interest.
     
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  19. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

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    Most people are MR A, how do I know? well look at the figures for long term unemployed, they grew drastically since 2008, that fact alone shows that the vast majority of people on the dole were working before the crash.

    There are and always will be slackers but.. the guy with 3 kids who worked in construction or a logistics company ect most of his life will have a tough time, remember schools and colleges spew out thousands of job seekers every single year and they are willing to work for little or nothing, which is being exploited to the max at the expense of hiring proper full time workers. This is happening all over Europe atm. The older you are, unless you have a skill in demand, the less likely you'll get any ****ing job.

    AS is the new jobs created is not even catering for school leavers never mind all the unemployed people.
     
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  20. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

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    What I find nuts in this time of "austerity" aka giving money to banks.

    If you are unemployed and you decide to volunteer.. they cut your dole <doh>

    And the drastically increased suicide cases... those people were not happy to sit on the dole with their life in ruins but unde a mountain of debt... it can be hard to see a way out with no prospects.
     
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