I was just teasing because you mentioned the Tories-Eton link, but Thatcher famously went to a state (albeit grammar) school. It was a light-hearted comment and not meant to be taken as a serious discussion point, hence the wink.
Just got up to speed on this thread and would make the following points: 1. Difficult to blame all of the country's problems solely on either Labour or Cons. Both have had their share of power in the last 30 years and both seem to have done some good but also made their fair share of mistakes. Very easy for either side of this debate to score cheap points as picking up on politician's errors is akin to shooting fish in a barrel 2. My personal opinion is that the economics theory of the 2/3, 1/3 society seems to be coming to fruition where 2/3 of the people have decent enough jobs, own their own house and car etc and the other 1/3 are basically screwed with very little chance of escaping from long term poverty - albeit relative rather than absolute poverty. 3. My opinion is that the biggest single block to people moving up the ladder in society is the price of housing. I can only see this becoming more and more of an issue as we have a combination of people now being able to draw out their pension funds to buy investment properties to put further upward pressure on prices and we also will see a concentration of wealth from my generation onward where our parents (who were often the first to own their own homes) pass on and leave them to us and our children will then receive the residue of these estates plus what we leave them so you could easily end up with our kids having a portfolio of properties without really having to do too much for it which is not that healthy but strikes me as highly probable. You'll then have more rentals and a very static housing market. 4. Regardless of whoever is in power there will always be some people who earn considerably more than others. Sometimes for good reasons and sometimes not but generally speaking we are all paid what we are worth to our employer unless we are altruistic and work at a lower income or as volunteers.
I agree with some of that but of course the problem with kids inheriting the parents property is that one of the parents is now quite likely to make 90 so the kids are going to be in their sixties before they get a house. Also where parents own one property the split might be quite small. My division of society is this 10/30/30/30 Top 10% Extreme wealth £1million +multiple properties,high income,other high value assets that could be disposed of. 11%-40% Comfortable. A decent house,bought and paid for.Pension and some assets. 41%-70% Struggling. Low income insufficient to own property forcing them to rent.No assets of any great value,employment patchy.Unskilled. 71% -100% No work,on benefits,poor health,poor housing.No prospects for advancement.Low educational standards. The problem will come when more than half the two bottom groups become politically aware. Much of UKIP support already comes from these groups.
where did you come up with those stats CT? Are they by percentage of population? Otherwise what exactly is it? As far as I'm aware, 10% of the country are estimated to be millionaires based on total assets, but not along with multiple properties etc. Earning £100k+ a year would put you in the top 1%, not 10%. Also, on the 40-70%, the ONS says that 36% of the country rents, so that can't be right. And if you're in this middling bracket you can't be on low income, given that is around the average - i.e. £27k or so, which (outside of London or the home counties) is enough for a family of two earners to be on £50k and get a decent house, plus some money. Also, what's "employment patchy"? 1.6m people are on zero hours contracts and unemployment is around 1.8m, against a total working population of 30m, so that means that nowhere near 70% of the country has patchy employment as most work full time. And I don't believe that 70% of the country is "unskilled". As for 71-100% category, who are these people? And what do you mean by benefits? If you're talking about jobseekers allowance, isn't that only about 700,000? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths Political awareness is actually much more divided based on age brackets rather than wealth
It was purely my own ideas. Dont forget that where the main breadwinner is unemployed the whole family are in the same situation. I know skilled motor mechanics who trake home £1300-£1400 a month. A quite typical wage is £9 an hour so £360pw off in tax and NI puts you on £1350 per month take home.
Operational definitions of poverty differ, but if you look at social exclusion and poverty indices, things are getting worse. Most folk on here seem to have discussed how they are better off/worse off and have also related this to a few of their colleagues or employees under respective governments- this says nothing about problems faced by a growing number of people in the UK if you look at the wider picture,, well if just really fecking depressing- Latest figures from UK’s largest poverty survey reveals rising deprivation A report into poverty and social exclusion in the UK has found that levels of deprivation and financial difficulties in the country are rising despite economic growth. The UK’s largest survey of poverty and social exclusion has found that the percentage of households which fall below society’s minimum standard of living has increased from 14 per cent to 33 per cent over the last 30 years. Released today, the latest results from the Poverty and Social Exclusion in the UK (PSE) project, which is produced in collaboration with The Open University (OU), also indicate that full-time work is not always sufficient to escape from poverty and researchers involved in the project have called on the Government to take action. Other key results from the survey include: • almost 18 million people cannot afford adequate housing conditions; • 12 million people are too poor to engage in common social activities; • one in three people cannot afford to heat their homes adequately in the winter • four million children and adults aren’t properly fed
"But so long as I'm comfortable let's keep it that way" I have to ask all Tory voters how they can really justify that way of thinking? As the world becomes smaller due to technological advancements, society has to start coming closer together. While some companies (Small and local) may treat employers very well and provide great wages, that is by no means the norm. Longsights comment brings up the real issue with society as a whole currently. And nothing will change so long as we just keep flicking between tories and Labour. It needs a whole shift of ideas.
And it will get worse as wealth moves inexorably from the bottom towards the top. More and more people will need their full income and more to survive while the wealthy collect more property in terms of second homes and buy to lets as well as amassing high value assets that are better than money in the bank. Classic cars have doubled in value over the last three years. Effectively toys for wealthy retirees that outperform most other sectors in terms of added value. Tory policies will exacerbate this and bring about social unrest as alienated young people vent their frustrations.Equality of opportunity is what is needed but as the economic playing field becomes tilted further in favour of the wealthy and against the have nots things can only get worse.
Oh yeah, the Tories will also happily put all the debt on the youth of today, a youth that is disenfranchised, poorly educated and with little chance for social mobility unless they happen to be moving in the right circles. All things that help to keep young people from being politically activist but is more likely to create one big riot once everyone has had enough!
I'm with you I don't believe for a minute that poverty or deprivation has got better under this current government. They've definitely created a system that prevents social mobility
Great debate this, really enjoyed following this one without getting myself involved (like I usually do!) and I'm not going to get mixed up in the left v right stuff as I think I've made my views known ad nauseum in the past, so I'm not going to go there. But just to throw another angle on things, the party I feel most sympathy for are the poor old Lib Dems, who are getting battered and laughed at by all and sundry, when actually I think they've done a bloody good job over the past five years. People say that the Tories "haven't been that bad" and that perhaps the cuts haven't been as extreme as we were led to believe they would be, but don't you think that may be because the Lib Dems as part of a coalition have been able to rein in and dilute what Cameron and Osborne would have done had they achieved outright majority in 2010? It's always the tuition fees issue that gets brought up, and it's the thing that has created this seemingly nationwide distrust in Nick Clegg, which I personally find completely barmy and disappointing that so many people can't see that for what it was rather than hold it the party as some kind of letting down of a generation. It was a Tory policy!! It was never part of Clegg's manifesto to increase tuition fees, and had he somehow miraculously managed to achieve something that the Liberals hadn't done for a century by forming a government on their own then I'm certain he would have stuck to his promise. However the Lib Dems are only a smallish part of a coalition, and they were never going to get their way on many of the big things they supported and would always have had to make huge compromises, as they have done. They were hung out to dry with all that, it disenfranchised a massive section of potential voters in one fell swoop and it's stuck for nigh on the entire term (much to the Tories glee I imagine) which I find annoying. It's just another example of how the media control how we think as without a major news corporation backing them or having appeal to the world of big business and the money men it is always going to be a struggle for Lib Dems to change their public image in the kind of media driven world we live today. We don't hear so much about the good stuff they have done, things they have managed to block or delay that the Tories would have passed in the bat of an eyelid and it's always Danny Alexander or Vince Cable thrown in front of the cameras when there's **** going down. They have done a far better job in the past five years than people realise, and I hate it when I read about how it's a wasted vote, which sadly it will be where I live.
Clegg sold out the liberals for his pension and a seat in the House of Lords. Getting in bed with the Tories has totally destroyed their credibility as a self functioning party. The despicable u tern they did on students uni fees will never be forgotten by students or their parents who have ended up paying for this. I hope the liberals will disappear as a party at the next election. At least with the Tories and the kippers you know what they are and stand for. Hopefully Clegg and his turncoat scumbags will be signed off to the political dustbin after the next election
I haven't been following this thread since it began and I have to say that some of the personal insults are lowering the tone of a very serious thread. Having said that however, I find that Munky's thread has really said pretty much what I feel this election is about. I do hope that the Lib Dems don't suffer annihilation, because as Munky says, having a coalition has resulted in a 'watering down' of some of the more extreme Tory policies.. I have 2 MAJOR concerns leading up to this election - The thought of Ed in No is bad enough 10, but EVEN worse is the grinning Ed who would be in No 11 WORSE than both of that is the thought of a large number of SNP MPs and that would result in Labour losing a lot of seats and see Alex Salmond in Westminster trying to throw his weight around!!!! Perish the thought. Edit - I was born in Scotland, but have never been a fan of the SNP and what they're trying to do!!!!
