Rob, this article is not about Islamic law not actually supporting the death penalty. It's just saying it doesn't have to. Atheism has no effect on my life so I am not religious. I have a non belief system. My opinions on religion are political. Atheism is the starting point for everyone before any outside influence brings about belief. People can believe what they want. I just don't believe they should have political influence or any kind of influence over others. You differ from me in that you think terrorism and interpretation is the problem. I think religion in general is the real issue.
What are you talking about? Read paragraph 3 even if you can't be bothered to read the whole thing. It makes it quite clear that your: "Islamic Law states the death penalty for apostates. I've not read anything to say otherwise." is the 'commonly held belief', but that there are alternative interpretations. This article is a direct contradiction of your statement. And now you HAVE read something to say that Islamic Law doesn't say it. That the article accepts debate is the point - there is debate. You were saying there is no debate. But there is. What part of that isn't clear? I know you struggle with nuanced views, but the point is that there is debate within Islam on every fundamentalist and moderate point. Islam is not black and white like your view of the world. It is wildly contradictory. There are many varieties of Islam. "Atheism has no effect on my life so I am not religious. I have a non belief system. My opinions on religion are political." (A) you have got to be joking. You pretty much define yourself on a very clear set of hard and fast opinions. (B) yes, you have a system. That's why it is religious. It's your system. You have a rigid, intolerant system, based on a clear belief that there is no God. You have added a number of other rigid tenets to this system - that religion should have no part in politics. Leaving aside your contradiction in that presumably you believe that atheism should have a part in politics, that is a very clear viewpoint and one that you are quite clearly willing to campaign on (just like Islamists or Christians). That's why you are so religious. Even in your latest post you cannot accept opposing viewpoints. As throughout this thread. Your viewpoint is entirely religious in relation to your own opinions. Even the strict is Christians that I have met have been prepared to accept debate, acknowledge the gaps in the Bible, etc, the flaws in Pascal's wager. You, on the other hand, won't even consider any opposing view. That's why you are as extremist as the Jihadists, just on the atheism end of the theism spectrum. "Atheism is the starting point for everyone before any outside influence brings about belief." What are you talking about? Agnosticism is the starting point. Babies do not believe there is no God. They don't believe either way. We are born agnostics, we develop beliefs like atheism as part of growing up. "You differ from me in that you think terrorism and interpretation is the problem. I think religion in general is the real issue." Carrabuh, sometimes I have to admire your complete and utter disregard for anything anyone else is saying. It is extraordinarily religious and bone-headed. This statement doesn't accord with anything I've said. Quite extraordinary. It's like your utter inability to accept you might be wrong on anything - this is an entirely religious stance. Your single-minded fundamentalist atheism is the very mirror of the fundamentalist theists.
Well the responses to this thread certainly haven't done the job. I was only trying to make the point that it's disgusting how some people are prepared to use violence and murder in response to a cartoon. I think the fact that they are Muslim is only a small part of it, they could quite easily find another reason to 'justify' their vile actions. And what wound me up is that we've accepted (or been told to accept) that not all Muslims are terrorists yet the reprisal attacks in Niger were just aimed at Christians and people with French connections and absolutely no connection to Charlie Hebdo. Their logic: Because some French people who probably weren't even Christians published a cartoon which offended us then all Christians and French people are offensive our religion, so by their own logic the entire Muslim community needs to take responsibility for their actions and for the killings in Paris. I have absolutely no problem with religion,but anybody who is prepared to hurt or kill others who don't share their beliefs shouldn't be considered human.
RM2 - sorry this thread has gone off track while I've tried to instil some self-awareness into Carrabuh. The bottom line is I think (correct me if I'm wrong) we all agree with you that this is utterly despicable . I think something desperately needs to be done, even though Carrabuh thinks extremists aren't a major problem I think we are duty bound to protect people against them and work out a way to prevent them.
If what you're saying is that Atheism's refusal to acknowledge and tolerate the religious beliefs of others is similarly narrow-minded to trying to force others to adopt Islam (although I'm not sure if this is what the terrorists are trying to achieve actually, I doubt there is a sane explanation for their motives) then I agree. The thing is Carrabuh ironically shares the same stance as a fanatical, fundamentalist Muslim because they're both adamant that their belief is the correct one and that anybody who has a different system of beliefs is wrong. The only difference is that as far as I know, Athiests haven't started using violence and murder to get their point across although I do fear the World is heading that way...
Exactly. Spot on. Though I would say it's Carrabuh's atheism as opposed to atheism generally. There are lots of types of atheism (including various weird spiritualist and occult stuff), just like there are lots of types of monotheism, Islam and Christianity.
I'm with Carra on this. I would probably call him a Radical Atheist. But just because he is forceful in expressing his opinions doesn't in any way detract from the logic of his argument. The problem I have with your view Rob is that you really then have to give equal weight to all religions. That includes Creationists, should for example they be allowed to teach that evolution is bunk? It includes those who say they have fairies,those who wave flourescent light tubes about as Jedis,and Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot. My position on Atheism is that I KNOW it is right. How can I know it? Because Anthropology shows us that unsophisticated societies all create a higher being.That includes those who worship the Duke of Edinburgh and those who worshiped the USAF who delivered what they saw as manna from heaven. The Cargo Cult if memory serves. Fairly logical that one by the standards of religion.At least you got the pay off before you pegged.
I could not have put it better myself. Of course most Muslims are peaceful, law abiding citizens. But , the real concern is , that a very significant proportion of them are sympathetic to the extremist motives for carrying out terrorist atrocities. Most Muslims that I have seen being interviewed after the Paris murders, were very quick to express their outrage at the way their Prophet was being satirized, but very few openly condemned the murders.. The same lack of condemnation occurred after the London bombings. In fact , a lot young Muslims thought it was hilarious to travel on the Underground with their ruck sacks just to witness the look of suspicion , and perhaps terror, on the faces of their fellow passengers Yes, it is true that the Christian faith was responsible for some atrocities 300 or so years ago( as were our Royal Family !!). But this is modern 21st century Britain we are living in, and to bring up what happened all those years ago in an attempt to draw comparison to current religion driven atrocities, is, in my opinion, quite incredulous .
Don't quote Godwin's Law on me because I am not saying Muslims are Nazis but consider this. Hitler came to power with a minority of votes. As his policies throughout the thirties restored Germany's pride and position in the world he gathered more support.When he annexed Austria he got more. When he invaded Czechoslovakia he gaine more. When he invaded Poland he got more. He had a valid political rationale for these acts. Austria was part of Germany,similarly the Czechs had been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Poland had ethnic Germans in the Danzig corridor. Had you taken a poll in June 1940 you would probably have found that the vast majority of Germans would have supported him. Those agianst would have been those like myself and Carra who would have been politically against him. (I was with Thatcher and The Falklands) You just know that whatever these people do is wrong,it's in their DNA. So with radical Islam. If they could succeed in establishing a Caliphate in Britain about 80% of Moslems would give it their backing. Their loyalty to Allah trumps all else for them. Sad,but true.
Coming from a science background I make decisions of what I believe in based on evidence. In other words I follow Occam's razor; the simplest explanation is often the best one. There is hard evidence of evolution occurring within in our lifetimes (just think antibiotic resistance in common bacterial infections) which is immediately incompatible with there being a God as taught in any of the major religious texts because of the contradiction to creationism. So whilst by my own logic I cannot rule out another interpretation of God existing, to me any followers of Christianity or Islam or any other religion that believes in God existing as an all-powerful, sentient being is inherently wrong and all followers are deluded. Don't get me wrong, if interpreted in the right way religion is a nice way to live your life but I refuse to accept other people's religious beliefs until they procure a shred of evidence to support them. It is impossible to disprove the existence of God in the same way it is impossible to disprove anything; I could claim that there are aliens on the streets of Norwich right now and none of you could actually prove I was wrong even though we all know I would be talking nonsense. So that is why the only rational way to live your life should in my opinion be making decisions based on evidence. Unfortunately, religious people are inherently irrational and that is why we have religion as the root of all evil today.
I think we've been overly tolerant towards religion in this country, to the point it get's involved in education and local government to various extent, it's got to stop as it's not a rational way for people to live. I live in an area with a high muslim population lots of Pakistani's, Somalian's, Bangladeshi's and the more secular Turks. On nights out you'll get a taxi it's highly likely the driver will be muslim, occasionally you'll get into conversations about the state of the Northampton, how things will change etc, you ask them their opinions on Western Values they seem to accept the nighttime culture as it's their livelihood, they even speak about developing more nighttime leisure facilites, which is surprising as they see the worst of people in the worst of states. The major problem is convincing moderate muslims that being apathetic towards extremism is a problem, you'll get the occasional outspoken muslim who'll talk to you about extremism about whats happening in Syria about Anjem Choudary being a piece of ****, however it's getting the average muslim in the street to react, so long as they go to Mosque for prays and keep their head down like a good muslims then it's all OK, they need to speak out more. Another problem in their community the state is seen a secondary authority the Mosque and the Imams are the primary authority. That's severely wrong way to live how can people respect the laws when the religion is the major power in their life?
I contend that we are both aetheists . I just believe in one fewer gods than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods , you will understand why I dismiss yours.
Rob I'll say it again where in your article does it say Islamic law does not have the death penalty for apostacy. It doesn't. The article is about interpretation. Show Plagirism is not
It's a quote you daft **** . Carabuh to say you are religeous is like saying a pork pie is suitable for vegetarians . I like Rob but his crusade to win every ****ing argument is energy sapping. My ex was a muslim she banned pork from the house and we never married because I didn't convert to Islam.. I have 3 kids with her and in her religeon I should be obeyed and to argue with me was a sin just because I was born a man. My daughter as far as I'm concerned can meet and marry who she wants when she grows up . Her mum is already insisting she marries a muslim even though her father is an aetheist . She came here to find a new life in England but insists on me and my family to change to suit the backward world that she left. I take great pleasure in taking my 8 year old daughter for a full English breakfast and if she brings up the Muslim crap that her mum teaches her I simply tell her to wait until she is old enough to make her own mind up about these things .
**** me SN, you are heading for a Fatwa pal! (Good thread BTW,congratulations on keeping your collective hair on.)
Is your ex originally from a muslim background or a convert? My Neighbours are muslim their ****ing demented kid runs around the house screaming and stamping, from ten to half eleven every night, I tend to keep them out of mind when discussing Islam in general though.
I have since married a Chinese Buddhist 9 years younger than my ex so I think I am safe there, the point I was making is that I have experienced first hand the hypocracy of muslims that chose to live in our free country and from my experience they take the bits that suit them but try to change our beliefs and culture rather than themselves. On the plus side my kids are doing exceptionally well at school from the strict upbringing of their mum's lifestyle. If my parents forbid me to have children with a non Christian then those kids would not have been born yet her mother guilt trips her about the kids being bastards and that they are going to hell because she didn't manage to convert me. Tolerance is something we respect in the UK but our guests that we welcome with open arms don't seem to get it and expect us to change to accomadate them and their ideals.
