A French satirical newspaper called Charlie Hebdo has a history of publishing cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammed, which could be seen as offensive to Muslims. A small number of Muslims attack the offices of this newspaper and orchestrate a number of other attacks in Paris, claiming innocent lives of civilians and police officers and are deemed to be attacking the value of free speech. We accept that these few evil people happen to be Muslim but that they do not represent Islam as a whole. Later, the same French newspaper publishes another cartoon depicting the prophet Muhammed in response to the horrific killings. The latest publication is met with praise around the Western world for standing up against terrorism. This defiance is almost a middle finger to terrorists and shows that they have just united France against terrorism. Of course this cartoon is still offensive to the religion of Islam as a whole, not just to terrorists who happen to be Muslims. In Niger, one of the responses to the latest Charlie Hebdo cartoon was violent protests in which people were killed. A mob of angry Muslims attacked, set fire to and destroyed to the French cultural centre and shops owned by Christians. Now that is the bit which really grinds my gears. We've accepted that Islam is a religion of peace and that the religion as a whole shouldn't be judged on the actions of a small number of evil people who claim to represent it. Now in Niger attacks have been aimed at France and Christianity in general, even though those people have literally no association with Charlie Hebdo. Christian shopkeepers and the French cultural centre in Niger are responsible for a French newspaper publishing offensive cartoons? Is there even any evidence that the newspaper has a Christian agenda? If either of these are true then does this justify using violence against these people???! A small part of the Muslim community in Niger has made me incredibly angry with their actions. To some extent they are just reinforcing the awful Western stereotype of Muslims being terrorists. If all French people and all Christians are responsible for the actions of a single French newspaper, which, by their logic, is true, then all Muslims are responsible for the terrible murders in Paris? The events of recent weeks just go to show that the greatest threat humanity faces is itself and that there are some truly evil people in the World. The more I think about it, the more it angers me. The World will never be free from evil and religion is ultimately only an excuse that these pathetic shells of human beings hide behind to justify their terrible acts. I need something to restore my faith in humanity ASAP.
You won't find alot to restore your faith in humanity within the Muslim community. I've not accepted that the Muslim faith is for peace, far from it. It is a truly horrendous thing to follow.
Most Muslims are peaceful. No? If you agree with it or not I don't see anything wrong with following their teachings for the most part. What is wrong is how the religion has been manipulated and changed in an evil way. So much of what is regarded as Muslim now has changed drastically over the last 50 years or so. Manipulated for individual gain.
a) Why believe in something that does not exist b) It is those Muslim westernised that are the tolerant ones, we have manipulated it from the evil from its source. It is the non muslims that allowed them to change. c) Apostacy is punished with death It really is no wonder these maniacs are developed.
Be fair Carrabuh, Islam was much more tolerant and peaceful 300 years ago than Christianity was, and indeed Islam is now. It was manipulated the way it has become with the Wahhabi movement in the 19th century. So it's hard to speak in black and white. Likewise apostasy is only punishable by death under Wahhabism and similar ideologies. I think it's pretty clear that, given the chance and freedom, normal Muslims are just as tolerant and peaceful as anyone else. The trouble is the people who like to take power and realise that Islam is the best tool. As for (a), while I agree with you, it's hardly going to be a resounding argument for those that do believe in a sky pixie, is it? If you want people to change, you have to work within their belief system, not against it. Otherwise they'll just ignore you as fundamentally wrong, just like you consider them fundamentally wrong.
Clearly you are not religious and neither am I. I think most people are religious because they want something to believe in and a way of explaining life. But to say all Muslims are terrible people other than the ones that have been Westernised is ridiculous. Im not saying I agree with all their practices by any means. Do you think we should tell them what to believe in? The major issue is that the religion has been manipulated and changed. An obvious example is something like wearing a burka. 50 years ago most Muslims (depending on country) never wore them. Now most do and in most countries. All it says in the Kuran is women should dress modestly. Things like the word "jihad" which people say means holy war, actually has other meanings as well. It just depends how people twist them. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? They mostly are nice people and fantastic hospitality! Much better then here. It is wrong to judge a religion on the acts of a minority even if they say it is the name of religion. Over history have Catholics or Christians been any better?
Apostacy is punishable with death under all four schools of Islam. Christianity 300 years ago has nothing to do with it. Even if Christianity was less tolerent does not mean Islam was tolerent at the time. I'd just argue the point Christianity had more power. Its very easy to speak in black and white when they are reverting to their books, they are clear enough as to what to do.
Well, I'd rather tell them what to believe in than some daft cleric (regardless of whether he's peaceful or not). I'm not saying the Muslim people are terrible, they are just stupid to follow. Its the religion which is terrible.
Actually it's not. The Quran never says punishable by death, that's in contradictory Hadiths. Lots of Muslims don't believe it is. I wasn't arguing about Christianity. I was refuting your point that it's only Western Muslims who have been "manipulated". The point is actually that, as tipsy points out, it's the extremists that have been manipulated when you compare modern Islam with what Islam has been like for most of its 1400 year history. With respect, though, Carrabuh, your statement "when they are reverting to their books, they are clear enough as to what to do", shows that you really don't know what you're talking about. Islam, like pretty much all major religions, is highly contradictory on virtually every single major ideological point. It's not clear at all - it's actually deliberately ambiguous. All the most despicable tenets of the Jihadis are taken from Hadiths rather than the Quran. Using just the Quran you can refute all their actions (though the Quran, like the bible, also teaches some fairly horrible stuff given that it was written more than a millennia ago).
Carrabuh, the point is the religion is not terrible. The religion is simply an ambiguous tool used by terrible people. It's Jihadism and Wahhabism that are terrible. There's plenty in the Quran that's very peaceful, surprisingly modern, etc. But the real point is that you are an utter fool if you think telling them their religion is stupid will help. They already believe it, you have to work with what you have. I'm surprised you are so easily manipulated by the terrorists Carrabuh. You are thinking exactly what they want you to think - that Islam as a whole is our ideological enemy - because that pushes all Msulims to the jihadists. The reality is that Wahhabism, etc, are our ideological enemies. "Nice" Islam is perfectly compatible with modern democracy and western ideology.
The Qur'an: Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Clear as day
Fair enough. I am guessing you think most religions are terrible though? Im not a big fan of religion either and there is no doubt it has been used as an excuse for more wars then anything else. However I see no problem of believing in something be that a god or whatever else. I thing the vast majority of people regardless of religion want to act peacefully. From a psychology view it can be very beneficial for people to have something to believe in or reasons for life. It can give them a sense of control over what is happening. IMO that is all religion is a big psychological game. But who knows maybe there is a god? I don't believe it but can you disprove it? That is an annoying argument people always use haha
Like I said, the real stupidity lies in the people telling them this is true. Stands to reason if all our schools taught the Qu'ran then we'd mostly be Muslim. You are also talking nonsense, as if I'd advocate telling them there religion is stupid as a way to go about it so don't try and deliberately misunderstand. Regardless of any peaceful paragraphs, it is based upon a theory of thought police, God is reading your thoughts, impeding your freedom, deny him and die. It is absolutely a cruel way to lead your life.
One quote you fool. You can find about a hundred violent quotes in the Quran. Just like in the bible. But I could also find you a hundred quotes in there that are peaceful: "To you your religion and to me, mine". That's a direct quote too. Does that mean the entire Quran is peaceful and tolerant? No, it means it's entirely contradictory. Honestly Carrabuh, it is baffling beyond belief that you cannot see you are as much of an extremist as they are. You are acting like a puppet in the Jihadists hand, dancing to their tune. Be a bit wiser and don't succumb to your irrational self
I'm afraid to say that this situation will be with us for all of our lifetimes and probably that of our children, unfortunately it looks likely that the worst of it is still to come with the ever growing numbers and threat of IS. Thankfully though all religion will be dead within 500 years, then maybe our kind will fulfil its undoubted potential.
So if I described my love mankind in a big thick book and at the end said by the way if you don't believe me I'll have you killed. You'd think that to be reasonable and tolerent. In addition, you stated it said nothing in the Qu'ran that said death to apostates. I think you have a rather inflated opinion of your own knowledge. IT IS ISLAMIC LAW. It is mans humanity that makes religions tolerent, not the other way round.
"So if I described my love mankind in a big thick book and at the end said by the way if you don't believe me I'll have you killed. You'd think that to be reasonable and tolerent." I appear to be discussing with Guru. Where did I say that? I don't know whether you're being deliberately obtuse because you've realised your failed logic or whether you really don't understand: He big thick book is says "if you don't believe me I'll have you killed" (or equivalent), but it also says "believe what you like, it makes no difference to me and I'll let you" So, you see, the big thick book is violent and intolerant, but it is also reasonable and tolerant. It is both and neither. It is a contradiction. "In addition, you stated it said nothing in the Qu'ran that said death to apostates. I think you have a rather inflated opinion of your own knowledge. IT IS ISLAMIC LAW." You understand the difference between the Quran and Islamic Law, right? There are varying interpretations of Islamic Law. It is not one single thing. The apostasy part is not in the Quran, as I said. It comes from Hadiths. That means that various Islamic scholars disagree that it is Islamic law, others believe it is (like Wahhabis).
"It is mans humanity that makes religions tolerent, not the other way round." Correct. So let's use the manifold parts of the Quran (and indeed Hadiths) that preach peace and tolerance. There's more than enough in there. You're conflating two issues: (1) you don't like religion (2) you don't like extremist Islam The thing is, I agree with both. But you can't fight both at the same time. You have to fight the religious on their terms, unfortunately. As we managed to do with Christianity over the course of 300 years.
Thats the whole point of your argument, your saying its full of peace, etc and it is people twisting the text. Its not, the contradiction argument goes against what you are saying. People are not twisting it because it is in there. To say your interpretation of Islam is correct is arrogance unbound. The Hadiths, Islamic Law, all the clerics that preach it (virtually all) have read it wrong. You are crackers Rob, deluded to what is really being taught, cruel practices, violations of privacy, human rights. The nastiness just gets washed over by these people, but threat is at the very heart of this religion (as with most). It all flows down from an evil top.
Ern, no Carrabuh I'm not saying it's people twisting the text. Where did I say that? I said they are selectively reading the text. Your argument is that there are violent and intolerant passages therefore it is intolerant and violent. By the same logic, there are peaceful and tolerant passages therefore it is peaceful and tolerant. I'm saying neither. I'm saying it is contradictory, with those selecting the parts they want. I'm saying we should encourage them to select the parts we want. Not only is that logical, that's clearly also the most practical way of getting what I assume we both want (and end to terrorism and Muslims peaceful and tolerant). How do you reconcile your hatred of Islam's intolerance and your own intolerance? As for your assessment of Islam, you do understand what theological debate is, right? There are conflicting opinions. Many Muslims believe the parts of the Hadiths which preach that apostasy is punishable by death, others believe the Hadiths that do not. You do realise that Islam is not one coherent beast, yes?
