There's nowt wrong with wanting to strive for something better BTW on the notion of enforcing democracy abroad, I don't believe there's any such idealism on our part. Democracy is ONE means to an end for geopolitical ambitions that suit our interests. The events in Iraq had very little to do with bringing democratic freedom to the people of Iraq and spreading democracy in the region. And even then, in the middle-east it only seemed to become flavour of the month for us, during the Arab Spring. The situation in Egypt is a perfect example of "the more things change the more they stay the same." The reality is we'll deal with anyone and everyone that serves our purpose, whether dictator or elected leader.
Charlie Hebdo is a satirical magazine. Their 'raison d'etre' is to disrespect all faiths and institutions. Most can handle it.
So be it. But then that standpoint is as arrogant and absolute as those who argue against the depictions because their 'raison d'etre' is their faith. Doesn't really solve anything.
Presumably you lads are posting on here because there is no equivalent on your boards. You are most welcome (by me at least) as long as you recognise the total intellectual and moral superiority of the QPR fan. [for absolute clarity, and in the context of this thread, that is a tongue in cheek comment. Albeit true] The Will Self discussion is interesting. I'm a fan of his fiction (well, most of it) and his psycho-geography work. He doesn't look well in this, and is in danger of disappearing up his own arse, travelling down a moral relativist track. The other bloke, from a pragmatic perspective, makes more sense. Terry, I have no doubt that you are right. But then why aren't the previously non Muslim peoples of the Middle East, Asia Minor etc, to say nothing of the Spanish, seeking revenge on the Muslims who conquered and exploited them for centuries? Why aren't the Indians/Hindus bombing and terrorising us for our exploitation of India? Likewise the non Muslim peoples of colonial Africa and the West Indies? What's left of the native people's of Central and South America are not engaged in a war with Spain, which arguably did more damage than any other colonial nation. It's hard to avoid the suspicion that religion is at the root of it. Islam, from its very first stirrings, has been for long stretches an expansionist, exclusivist and militaristic ideology.
This is the quote that I wanted to reply to. This is one of your best ever posts mate. Brilliantly put.
Sorry Matt, got to take issue with you re China. They've liberalised their economy nothing else. There is no democracy, freedom of speech, choice of politicians. Ironically in the context of this thread they are actively oppressing Muslims as well as Tibetans and many of their ethnic minorities. The Chinese state executes more people every year than the governments of the rest of the world put together. For crimes like fraud as well as murder. Their reaction to the simple demands of a few kids in Hong Kong says it all.
I wouldn't deny Muslims the right to follow their faith - just don't expect my respect. The Islamists would deny CH, and probably me, the right to disrespect.
Surely, those comparisons only apply IF muslim people actually want to revenge any such perceived injustices against them? I don't see it. I see a small proportion of extremists who have their own agenda against another set of extremists who have their agenda. I also disagree that religion is at the root of expansionism and militirarism in modern day Islam. There are one and a half billion muslims in the world. If that was the agenda, then the world would be burning right now, but I don't see that either. I think that 99% of muslims in the world want what we all do, earn a living, do well by their kids and pay their bills like the rest of us. The battle here isn't between Islam and us imo, the real battle is between the moderates on both sides and the extremists on both sides. Until we recognise that, and tackle both with the same fervour, this mess continues.
I've no idea what Terry is arguing Stan but why would the Indians and South Americans be trying to fight former colonial rulers when they left a long time ago? The Iraqi catastrophe is ongoing to this day because of a war and occupation just a few years ago. There are still US troops in Afghanistan today, not centuries ago.
Yes but you seem to think that only your view matters. As I've been posting earlier, what's being missed here is that each side seems to view things from only their perspective and each believes their values are right. While you may feel that you or CH shouldn't be denied to disrespect someone's faith, the muslim guy on the other side may feel that you should respect their faith. Now according to you, your values are such that disrespecting someone's faith is acceptable, but to them their values are the complete opposite. Normally never the twain shall meet. The problem is when they do. Now if you decide to step across the divide and start imposing your values on others, don't be surprised if they don't stand up for their own values. As I said earlier it has connotations of a colonial nature.
If religion isn't at the root of Islamic State, which strikes me as pretty expansionist and aggressive, and the Taliban, I'm losing the plot. Of course only a minority actively pursue their ends by violent means. Sorry if I gave that impression, wasn't my intention. But I refer you to the earlier Venn diagram discussion. Afraid I don't think the 'battle' is between 'moderates' and 'extremists'. I think it's between rationality and gibberish. Sssssh. Even as I was writing it I knew it didn't hold water.
This is bollocks. I have never tried to impose my views on anybody. If asked, or provoked, I will give my opinion, as I have done on this thread, but I would never assert that my view was so precious that it should not be countered.
But Islamic State represent muslims as much as the Ku Klux Klan represent Christian or Pol Pot represents the atheists. It just so happens that there are one and a half billion muslims and therefore anyone associated with the religion committing these atrocities then makes the problem seem far bigger than what it is. We could also go into how I.S. actually became the force they are. I would argue it was probably more down to the rationals than the muslims when you look at the last 3 years, prior to which they were completely insignificant. In fact I could argue that the Frankenstein's monster that is I.S. is more a result of the political interests of the rationals than the religious. I will check out the earlier Venn Diagram though. I must have missed that, but the rest I've read is pretty good on this thread. Re your last sentence, that's a shame. Dare I say a little intolerant? Live and let live I say, gibberish or not. I couldn't really care less about what people believe as long as they don't go around killing or imposing their views on others. And that applies to people of all faith and none.
Sorry Stroller, but I don't think you've understood what I'm saying. I didn't think you had when I first posted so tried to explain it better but that hasn't helped either. I'll leave it there but just so there's no misunderstanding, it wasn't aimed at you personally, I was using examples for both sides
If you want to be an apologist for these nutters in the name of 'tolerance' that's your call. I have no problem with not tolerating fear and ignorance. Amazingly I'm free to express this lack of tolerance using words and argument, not violence. As to your last sentence, I totally agree. As soon as religious people stop killing, indoctrinating children and the weak, and oppressing others (notably women),and being insulted by people who happen to think differently, I'll leave off. PS Pol Pot's ideology espoused an extreme version of corrupted Marxism plus ultra Khmer nationalism and xenophobia. I think it's a little misleading to classify him as an atheist full stop.
where on that picture did it say it is a depiction of Mohamed looks like the bloke who delivers the milk to work should I be worried should I bring my own milk in future
