The stats show we are performing worse than last season - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ited-have-got-worse-under-Louis-van-Gaal.html
But does that mean we have improved in terms of the quality of our football - or is everyone else playing crap foorball as well ?
It doesn't though. Stats don't show performance. You have to watch the games for that, and anyone who watched us last season and watched us this, can see our performances have been better. It's also about trend. Last season we started off well and then deteriorated. Our home form was bloody awful. By the end of December we were 3 points off 4th. We were well and truly still capable of getting top 4. It was at this point we went down hill, and fast, as the confidence sapped from the team. That's where our season collapsed so I don't see how anyone can consider whether we've improved as the real damage was done in the second half of the season. The only comparison you can make AT THIS STAGE, is that last season we went from a title winning side in August gradually going downhill to 7th but still in the mix, to this season where we've gone from a 7th placed team climbing to top 4, looking like we will finish top 4, and it's still in our hands.
Only one of those stats has anything to do with performance. 1. Goals scored has fallen by one, so we are performing slightly worse in that regard. But so is the PL as a whole this season - defences have gotten notably tighter this year 2. Shots on goal has fallen. Ask Liverpool fans how their massive numbers of shots on goal have translated into better performances over the past five years 3. Passes in final third has fallen. In other words, we aren't turning into Arsenal 4. Percentage of long passes has risen by 2%. So? It doesn't even say how you define a long pass - do cross field balls from Rooney and Mata count as long passes? 5. Total crosses have fallen. Oh no, we're no longer crossing the ball 80 times per match, causing Fulham's defenders to liken us to a non league side 6. Percentage of tackles won has fallen. And yet we are conceding fewer goals this season. What's the point of tackling if not to prevent a goal? Another stat which is pointless without context. 7. Fouls conceded has risen. Scraping the barrel now. Our fouls per game stat is lower than City's, so maybe we should be fouling some more?
If anyone can be arsed to read this from the Guardian: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sunday’s 1-0 defeat to Southampton means both Louis van Gaal and David Moyes accrued 37 points after their first 21 Premier League games as Manchester United manager. But has the Dutchman really been as bad as the man who didn’t manage a full season before he was sacked? Here is analysis of who may be faring better as the Old Trafford No1 at this same stage of the season. 1) Statistical analysis The Dutchman has won a match less – 10 to Moyes’s 11 – and seen his side score 34 times, again one poorer than his predecessor’s team had scored at this stage in what was to prove his only season. Van Gaal’s team has made a total of 11,465 passes to Moyes’s 10,306, completing 85.2% against the 83.1% at this stage last season. Perhaps the most counter-intuitive number is that Van Gaal, with his background in the Dutch Total Football school, has overseen a side who have played more long balls (12.9% against the 11.3%) than his predecessor. Yet while Moyes’ United made more passes in the final third – 3,183 versus 3,078 – Van Gaal’s men have been slightly more accurate in their passing. This year’s United have conceded three less goals in 21 games, won more tackles (408 v 354) but have made more fouls (245 v 228) and the three red cards received is two more than under Moyes. Rating Van Gaal 6/10 Moyes 6/10 2) Transfer policy Van Gaal ended his summer window having recruited six first-team additions in Radamel Falcao, Luke Shaw, Ángel di María, Marcos Rojo, Daley Blind and Ander Herrera at a cost of over £150m. The issue here is how many of these – if any – have made a consistent contribution. Injuries, patchy form and a struggle to adapt to the Premier League have affected all at some point. The big disappointment is Falcao: his dropping from Sunday’s match-day 18 to face Southampton was hardly a surprise. A factor in Moyes’s dismal tenure was how he fared in the summer 2013 transfer window. The botched attempts to land Cesc Fàbregas, Thiago Alcântara, Leighton Banes and Herrera meant he ended up signing only one established player in Marouane Fellaini. The Belgian’s inflated £27.5m fee and struggle to adjust became the on-field symbol of Moyes’s own difficulties. He was hardly helped by the new executive vice-chairman, Ed Woodward, being a novice in player-acquisition and so by 1 September Moyes had just Fellaini, who United fans were instinctively doubtful of, and Guillermo Varela, a young and unknown Uruguayan right-back who was shown the door marked “loan” by Van Gaal this year. Rating Van Gaal 6/10 Moyes 4/10 3) Tactics 3-5-2, 5-3-2, 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 3-1-4-2, and 3-3-2-2: Van Gaal has proved flexible in the formation department yet is all this shape-shifting confusing the players? It has not helped to provide the consistent performances the manager wants, and of more concern is the lack of truly glittering displays in his tenure so far. Where is the flair and sparkle and breathtaking football United fans have supposedly been raised on? The Van Gaal vintage are a functional outfit who can grind out results. The latter part of this formula is admirable but the ordinariness means a lack of fluidity of play that can turn stubborn teams over. In the defeat to Southampton this deficit proved costly with the team registering a grand total of zero shots on target. To label Moyes as a one-dimensional tactician may be lazy yet who can forget the record 82 crosses his United made against Fulham last February as the then bottom Premier League club left Old Trafford with a 2-2 draw? The other entries on this charge sheet include a sluggish mode of football, a seeming abdication of on-field responsibility from players that surely derived from Moyes’s lead, and a general lack of spark and creation. Rating Van Gaal 6/10 Moyes 4/10 4) Coping with injuries The question for Van Gaal is whether bad fortune or his own culpability has caused the 56 separate injuries suffered by his squad, the last of these coming when Robin van Persie limped away on Sunday with an ankle problem. The 63-year-old has talked of an easing off from the level he would prefer to train players and has acknowledged trying to get to the bottom of precisely why the treatment room has been so crowded this season. Whatever the reason the injuries have not helped though do offer mitigation regarding why United are not higher in the table. After 21 league games of Moyes’s season there had been 44 separate injuries, though United were also involved in the Champions League and remained in the Capital One Cup. Of his key players Wayne Rooney suffered some niggling problems though rarely missed a chunk of games but Robin van Persie was absent for a crucial month from early December 2013 due to an upper leg problem. All managers have to deal with injury so unless they reach the unprecedented number Van Gaal has faced Moyes cannot point to this as a factor. Rating Van Gaal 5/10 Moyes 4/10 5) Behind the scenes The Dutchman was clear from the start he was introducing a new philosophy (a favourite buzzword) of which a central tenet has been to encourage players to use their brains rather than rely on instinct. This declaration has bought him time – along with the grace offered by having to follow Moyes’s failure – but the jury remains out as six months into his tenure United are still not a side who scare the opposition, home or away. One of Van Gaal’s opening acts was to install cameras at the training pitches and to rip up the first-team practice surface next to the Jimmy Murphy Centre so that Desso, the synthetic-grass hybrid material in place at Old Trafford, can be laid. He also asked that more trees be planted so that the facility is more sheltered by the wind. This pro-activeness has been evident at the stadium, too, where the players’ lounge has been relocated, now being partly used as a warm-up area and media interview room. The former Everton manager, on the other hand, did not make as many significant infrastructure changes at either Carrington or Old Trafford but did drive an overhaul of the club’s scouting system and created a “bunker” similar to the one from which he plotted player recruitment at Everton and was a bespoke facility that featured whiteboards, computers, with high-definition screens, iPads and other state-of-the-art digital technology. Rating Van Gaal 7/10 Moyes 5/10 6) Atmosphere around club The shiny CV boasting championships at all of his previous four clubs, won in three different countries, and the stellar performance of his Holland team in Brazil last summer give Van Gaal a fair reserve of collateral to draw on when results are poor. There is no surprise that every time a player opens his mouth he talks of being happy with Van Gaal’s methods – what else would he say? – but the sense is there is a belief the Dutchman is a winner who can elevate United again. The fans are also, largely, behind him though there were a few grumbles after Sunday’s loss to Southampton and the decision to drop Falcao. From day one Moyes faced a battle to convince that his face fitted and that he had the football brain, charisma and cojones to be Manchester United manager. The comments in March that Liverpool were favourites ahead of their visit to Old Trafford and that Manchester City were the standard to aspire to illustrated why players, and supporters, harboured doubts. Moyes seemed to shrink in the job and has since admitted he made mistakes. Perhaps the biggest was not to adapt a more cussed attitude instead of the meek persona he presented. Rating Van Gaal 8/10 Moyes 3/10 Totals Louis van Gaal 38/60; David Moyes 26/60 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw these comparisons a few days ago, You can't compare them. Its like having a mini and swapping it with a Aston Martin.
Regardless of stats, I don't recall you having such little impact going forward last year, that's got to be a concern given the money spent on attack minded players. LVG is also starting to come across a little flustered. Still think you'll get top 4 though.
The only reason Moyes has been found deficient is that he got overawed by the sheer size of the club and the expectations. I don't doubt his ability as a manager. LVG got through a sticky patch (results and injuries) because he has the personality and the CV. He has set out his objectives and he doesn't deviate from them.
Passes in the final third.... Those 84 crosses v fulham and the numerous pointless crosses in every game, to nobody, probably have some impact on Moyes stats. Which brings me onto another thing. We are far, far more efficient now. The reason we dony take pot shots all the time is because lvg believes in making it count. He would rather have 5 shots and score 4 than 50 shots and score 1. Nobody thinks hes been perfect but his job was far, far tougher than the one moyes walked into and failed at miserably. At every level of management he failed to deliver. Lvg has been tasked with the repair job. Hes not got a decade of experience in the premier league and he came into the job off the back of a world cup (no holiday, moyes took a few weeks off remember) anf unlike moyes, every game was a learning curve. He relies on Giggs to provide information on the opposition, someone who is also learning his new trade. To compare them suggests only that you are waiting for lvg to fail and that you cannot wait to say 'i told you so'.
This comparing seasons is great, look at the top 7 after 21 games last season and compare their points this season (and against Moyes stats). Arsenal 12 points down on last season, 1 point behind Moyes City same points as last season, 10 points ahead of Moyes Chelsea 3 points up on last season, 12 ahead of Moyes Liverpool 10 points down on last season, 5 points behind Moyes (oh dear, £120m spent to improve on second as well) Everton 19 points down on last season, 15 behind Moyes (bad season so far, expect improvement) Spurs 4 points down on last season, 4 behind Moyes United level on points, level with Moyes This proves nothing of course because every season is different otherwise everybody would finish in the same position every year (we could have 33 titles by now if true )
Disagree. Moyes was failed by the club in the summer transfer market having failed to get any of his target and left to take Fellaini on the last day. Moyes also had to follow a P.L winning side managed by Fergie. LVG has spent 150 million and had to follow the worst Man United season in P.L history. Dream job. He's effectively been no better than Moyes despite all the money spent but has benefited immensely by other teams doing a lot worse allowing top 4 to remain likely. Moyes had also never managed at the very top level for a trophy competing side where LVG has. No need to worry though, AVB or Rafa will improve you next year
I can see both points. Metthinred claims Moyes had the easier job but I am not sure. On one hand he was given a squad of champions, but most will see that this squad (which was probably the least impressive United squad for 10 years) only won the title because of a combination of Fergie's brilliance and Mancini's ineptitude at City, who had a much better squad. The level of expectation on Moyes was much harder, and he was left with an ageing defence and was not given a mighty war chest like LvG had, with only Fellaini to bolster the highly inadequate midfield, and Fellaini was terrible last season. LvG was given a squad that finished 7th, so expectations were not so high, AND was allowed to spend a fortune on world class players, which apart from Di Maria, imo was wasted. (Blind, Shaw and Falcao were not the players you needed imo), though I think Herrera has some quality about him. The hope for United at the moment, and the reason I believe LvG will ultimately piss on anything Moyes did, is because Moyes was totally fazed by being in charge of a club like United, where as LvG is in his element. By all accounts LvG has them playing better, at least to look at, than they did under Moyes. At the moment though, LvG's problem is that because he mispent that money in the summer, he doesnt have the squad to play to United's attacking strengths and persists with ****ty 3-5-2 formations that stifle their attack and protect their defence. I fully expect, regardless of where they finish this year, that they will reinforce the defence in the summer with 2-3 signings, and next season will be able to play a 4-3-3 and take advantage of Mata, Di Maria and co
Frankly, thats bollocks! The club failed Moyes? So we told him to take and extended vacation prior to taking on his biggest ever challenge? Compare with van Gaal who went to the death at the World cup before joining up with United immediately. Even while at the World Cup van Gaal was already making plans with United. Identifying targets. Moyes hadnt done this. Moyes also massively benefited from having a team of winners, on the back of a successful season to work with. A side full of confidence. A side who knew how to win regardless. Over the next few months Moyes destroyed this belief, this confidence and this winning mentality. That is by no means an easy task. It takes a level of skill to destroy something so used to winning. LvG took over a side who's confidence was shattered. No belief and the winning mentality long gone. 7 home defeats will do that to a club. This comical statement that LvG has benefited from other clubs being poor. Yes, He has certainly benefited from Southampton being awful. Thats a given. It's also very kind of other manager to do not only worse than van Gaal, but worse than Moyes. Impressive stuff. I especially enjoy fans of these particular clubs using it as a stick to beat LvG and United. "Haha hes no better than Moyes, same points hahaha........oh, but they're still ahead of us and that means we are doing worse than Manchester United did in their worst ever Premier League season." Wasn't thought through was it? Moyes had it easy. It was tougher to **** the job up than to be successful at it. This myth that fergie left the club in a state is laughable. Moyes was given all the support, in my opinion far ore support than he ever deserved from fans and the board. We were linked with so many players and the reality is, Moyes turned down many of them. Thiago being the most high profile. On Fellaini, Moyes always wanted him. From the moment he got the job. The fact he waited until deadline day to say, "ok Ed, go get the afro" is his fault. He was also incredibly arrogant. LvG is honest. he doesnt try and blame others. He certainly doesnt blame Sir Alex. Moyes did however.
Our expectations are to win the league or compete for it at the very least. This has been the case for over 2 decades and is a result of sustained success on and off the pitch. This is at board level and for fans (some will claim otherwise but 20 years makes it hard to expect anything less than competing at the top). Moyes and LvG had identical expectations. Ive mentioned many times how important confidence is to a club. Under Fergie the squad was brimming with it. Under Moyes we started like that. The opening game v Swansea was a Fergies United. We didnt play brilliant but we thrashed them. The opening game of this season, against the same side was very much a Moyes United performance. Those two games are a great example of the difference between the sides each manager started with. LvG plays 352 because we dont have the defenders to play his 433. That problem will be solved soon enough (possibly this window?) though the results may not be seen until next season. When we started with a 442 diamond a few gams into the season we suddenly looked brilliant in attack but this left us wide open at the back. To play attacking football that LvG and United fans want, we need a defence that can is up to the task. after the Leicester game which demonstrated the best and worst of us, hes made a decision that if we dont concede, we have every chance to win the game because the attacking talent will more often than not, get that important goal. The next two windows will add exactly what we need. 352 will disappear for ever.
Pretty much what I said. I can see why he is setting the team out as he is to be fair. Which unfortunately, isn't playing to your strengths, because the defence is inadequate. 2-3 signings in the summer (including a CB or 2) and we will see a much stronger United next season. The only thing that baffled me is why he didnt make these signings last summer, when it was plain for all to see that defence was where you were coming up short, but all his marquee signings were of an attacking nature (Di Maria and Falcao) when you already had Rooney, Mata, RvP, Januzaj etc He did sign Rojo, but frankly, and I said as much when you signed him, the guy has skill but is too Gung Ho and cannot be trusted, much like our David Luiz was. Maybe LvG should try to see if PSG want to part with another 50m for him.
He signed 3 defensive players. Blind, Shaw and Rojo. One for each of the positions we were in need. He also signed 2 midfielders and a striker. He pretty much covered all bases in one summer. Unfortunately many of these players have missed a substantial part of the season which has hampered their progress. Prior to injuries Di Maria was playing great, Blind was a key member of the squad, Rojo was just finding his feet and was probably our best CB (he looked great v City and seemed to know almost everything Aguero planned on doing before injuring.....himself). Falcao hasnt been great but hes scored important goals for us that have earned us points. Herrera seems to complete change how we play but doesnt get the game time (outside factors at play I suspect). Shaw hasnt really had a chance to show what he can do as hes always picking up a knock. Al in all, when they have played, they have done well. Added something to the team we were missing. Hopefully we will see more of them in the second half of the season as right now they average 7 appearances each.
I think most people underestimate the task of following someone who had been the heart beat of the club for more than 20 years. Everything at United revolved around him and his absence was bound to affect all not least the players who had been used to his ways and his systems. Moyes was totally underequipped and the wrong person (CV, titles etc) to follow him. People also underestimate the task of turning round a sliding team. It may seem that LVG had a easier task than Moyes. Yes, the team is failin so there will less criticism and more leeway for errors and time. But it is not easier to get a 7th place team than the champions to win the title... LVG will be judged at the end of the season on how good he was. A top 4 will keep away the critics and even if he doesn't achieve that I think the management will give him another season.
