I used Wiki as it was available, Can't be arsed sourcing the library book of Robert Kee that I quoted, but if you want to go that far I will as, has been mentioned, trinity Dublin is a major source of challenging glib myths of Irish history. Is satire about famines sacrosanct? Let me offer this: A MODEST PROPOSAL For preventing the children of poor people in Ireland, from being a burden on their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to the publick. by Dr. Jonathan Swift 1729 It is a melancholy object to those, who walk through this great town, or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads and cabbin-doors crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags, and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in stroling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants who, as they grow up, either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country, to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes. I think it is agreed by all parties, that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom, a very great additional grievance; and therefore whoever could find out a fair, cheap and easy method of making these children sound and useful members of the common-wealth, would deserve so well of the publick, as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation. But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars: it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age, who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them, as those who demand our charity in the streets. As to my own part, having turned my thoughts for many years, upon this important subject, and maturely weighed the several schemes of our projectors, I have always found them grossly mistaken in their computation. It is true, a child just dropt from its dam, may be supported by her milk, for a solar year, with little other nourishment: at most not above the value of two shillings, which the mother may certainly get, or the value in scraps, by her lawful occupation of begging; and it is exactly at one year old that I propose to provide for them in such a manner, as, instead of being a charge upon their parents, or the parish, or wanting food and raiment for the rest of their lives, they shall, on the contrary, contribute to the feeding, and partly to the cloathing of many thousands. There is likewise another great advantage in my scheme, that it will prevent those voluntary abortions, and that horrid practice of women murdering their bastard children, alas! too frequent among us, sacrificing the poor innocent babes, I doubt, more to avoid the expence than the shame, which would move tears and pity in the most savage and inhuman breast. The number of souls in this kingdom being usually reckoned one million and a half, of these I calculate there may be about two hundred thousand couple whose wives are breeders; from which number I subtract thirty thousand couple, who are able to maintain their own children, (although I apprehend there cannot be so many, under the present distresses of the kingdom) but this being granted, there will remain an hundred and seventy thousand breeders. I again subtract fifty thousand, for those women who miscarry, or whose children die by accident or disease within the year. There only remain an hundred and twenty thousand children of poor parents annually born. The question therefore is, How this number shall be reared, and provided for? which, as I have already said, under the present situation of affairs, is utterly impossible by all the methods hitherto proposed. For we can neither employ them in handicraft or agriculture; we neither build houses, (I mean in the country) nor cultivate land: they can very seldom pick up a livelihood by stealing till they arrive at six years old; except where they are of towardly parts, although I confess they learn the rudiments much earlier; during which time they can however be properly looked upon only as probationers: As I have been informed by a principal gentleman in the county of Cavan, who protested to me, that he never knew above one or two instances under the age of six, even in a part of the kingdom so renowned for the quickest proficiency in that art. I am assured by our merchants, that a boy or a girl before twelve years old, is no saleable commodity, and even when they come to this age, they will not yield above three pounds, or three pounds and half a crown at most, on the exchange; which cannot turn to account either to the parents or kingdom, the charge of nutriments and rags having been at least four times that value. I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection. I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasie, or a ragoust. I do therefore humbly offer it to publick consideration, that of the hundred and twenty thousand children, already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed, whereof only one fourth part to be males; which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle, or swine, and my reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore, one male will be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in sale to the persons of quality and fortune, through the kingdom, always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump, and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends, and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt, will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter. I have reckoned upon a medium, that a child just born will weigh 12 pounds, and in a solar year, if tolerably nursed, encreaseth to 28 pounds. I grant this food will be somewhat dear, and therefore very proper for landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem to have the best title to the children. Infant's flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; for we are told by a grave author, an eminent French physician, that fish being a prolifick dyet, there are more children born in Roman Catholick countries about nine months after Lent, the markets will be more glutted than usual, because the number of Popish infants, is at least three to one in this kingdom, and therefore it will have one other collateral advantage, by lessening the number of Papists among us. I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, labourers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend, or his own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good landlord, and grow popular among his tenants, the mother will have eight shillings neat profit, and be fit for work till she produces another child. Those who are more thrifty (as I must confess the times require) may flea the carcass; the skin of which, artificially dressed, will make admirable gloves for ladies, and summer boots for fine gentlemen. As to our City of Dublin, shambles may be appointed for this purpose, in the most convenient parts of it, and butchers we may be assured will not be wanting; although I rather recommend buying the children alive, and dressing them hot from the knife, as we do roasting pigs. (part one) You can access the full document at the above address. Now swift was an acknowledged Irish nationalist, but as he was a CofE cleric, maybe he, like the landowners and merchants, doesn't qualify as being Irish enough as he wasn't RC. Not sure how we got to The famine (something to do with ridiculing Sis's conspiracy theories, as I understand) but NOTHING is above satire, and that's the whole point of this incident. Je suis Charlie. And so was Swift.
Is he like nostradamus then? how many times were there and how many tdied each time and whay if there was more than one was the issue not resolved before 1million died....
Let's be sure what we're talking about here, shall we? Satire does not poke fun at victims- it derides the pompous, the perpetrators of crimes, and the abusers and mis-users of power. Effective or not, it is a tool for social improvement. Anything that appears to be laughing at victims is not satire, and shouldn't be called it, nor classed along with it.
that is a very excellent point... swift is clearly a hater of beggers and the indigent from that and was looking odwn on people similar to people today looking down on say romany people i think your way of describing satire is an excellent one that makes me think for sure.
I give up honestly ... I could post reams and reams to contradict Trinity's findings (a protestant college) . But an old man once told me back in 1982 dont argue with people on the internet. So as stated above I give up ... this is the liverpool board and a thread about paris. But Donga if youre still up for arguing and such , I suggest you make a thread on GC where I will contribute but it wont be played out here boring 90% of the posters.
so these guys are supposedly now holed up some place and the only reason they are being tracked is they stuck their heads up and attracted attention. it seems they had no real plan for after.... i mean surely you have some place to go and a car stolen with false plates fuelled to reach the border plus food etc if you planned to escape... perhaps they are shocked to have got out and not been in a siege i suppose. also it seems they killed no-one else so the training/brainwashing/coaching they had is now out the window and its strange to see two would be martyrs now just running like anyone else would do.... flight or fight and all that? you'd think they'd have turned up shooting if they were really jihadists or whatever you call them.... i dunno.
What are the odds the named suspects will be locallaside and killed in a suburb safe house this morning?
Heres the conspiracy ... the shooters were Mossad and are back in Israel already. The "brothers" are dead middle eastern guys whose names have been released as the attackers. The "brothers" will be "killed" and a photo released of the bodies. Dead men tell no tales etc. Funny how these two are still on the run after using a car to getaway. In any major city the police should be able to shut down possible escape routes in minutes , plus in any major city you wont be getting away very fast in a car.
There's a hell of a difference between fact and fiction. Bonny and Clyde were identified and chased across numerous states yet it took the police/FBI for them to make a mistake to finally catch them. The tracking and communication devices are now much improved but the same problems exist for the law enforcers. Once the fugitives manage to mix with the general public it becomes very difficult to identify them. These guys in France won't be located using some space age device, they'll do or say something stupid or make a mistake and that will do the job for the law. This isn't a computer game it's far more messy than that!
I think the people wondering why the killers aren't just routinely rounded up have been misled by a diet of TV and Hollywood thrillers.
