Leo - the Catholic Church were more concerned with their own survival during those Nazi and Facist dictatorships and so were in no position to condemn. Although Mussolini considered Catholicism and Facism and one and the same - the Pope never contradicted him (at least not at the time). The Islamic World does not have a 'head' of its organization. Just millions of sects claiming to be the only 'pure' believers, and, that being the case, why should they feel a shared guilt with people who they do not consider as Moslems ?
Wow I find the analysis of Islam by Cologne above very interesting - I didn't know there was a different interpretation of Islam to the Koran - just shows my ignorance. However for what it is worth all this just adds to my view that religion is the most evil of concepts mainly because they all assume they are right and others must be brought to their way of thinking one way or another. I would have no problem with religion if they allowed others to believe in what they want and we could all get on with each other, but no - religion has to fight (literally) for their cause. Therefore religion is the biggest evil - which is such a pity cos it seems to me the initial leaders of religion - Christ, Buddah, Mohammed, Abraham, Vishnu, etc. - actually wanted peace for everyone. Unfortunately their original ideas get corrupted by monsters such as those who shot the people in Paris yesterday. But also those who go to church on Sunday and then to the city on Monday to exploit the poor in the world by creating more wealth for the rich an powerful. They cannot see the contradiction or that they are closing their gate to their heaven!. I also agree with the above where the poor are kept ignorant for the benefit of those wishing to exploit them. It's interesting how the so called isis are trying to ensure there is no education and so ensure their power is not challenged. That is similar to how the poor were treated in this country in the past by Christian bishops and kings or how the slaves were treated by their Christian masters in the West Indies and Africa. History repeating itself. However, this doesn't give the so called isis an excuse because the world has moved on and they do know better. Christianity, Buddism, Hindi and Judaism all now preach equality, understanding of others and from what Cologne says above so does most of Islam. Therefore the fundamentalists have no excuse - they are fully aware of the right way and therefore are not acting according to the teachings of their original leader, but according to their interpretations drawn from their need for power and wealth. I also find it very strange that these monsters should react to a comic strip and would suggest this is due to their reluctance to engage with the culture they are living in. After all - so what if someone makes a cartoon of Mohammed? - surely Mohammed has enough wit to see the funny side, after all what difference does it make to him? When Monty Python made the life of Brian - a few fundamentalist Christians complained and they were allowed to do so, but by and large most of us went to see the film and had a laugh. No-one was shot or threatened. It seems to me that the fundamentalist Islamic's are in the wrong place if they think anyone is going to be persuaded by these appalling actions. Viva Le Charlie - Je Suis Charlie
There appears to be something innate in humans that make them believe in some form of God. It is pretty universal across space and time. I admit that I am shallow enough that I only stopped believing finally when Mrs L got cancer -somehow that was the last straw for me. I had faith when it was other people who suffered but it seems that this was one step too far. Pathetic. I now not only do not believe in any god but take the position that if I am wrong and meet him when I die then I will let him know how much I hate him and do not care a jot about whatever hell I am then condemned to. For me now every day is hell, I live in the knowledge that the person I love most in all this world, the mother of my children, is dying and I can do nothing about it. Cancer is the first thought on both of our minds when we awake and before we go to sleep and often when we wake in the night. Nobody who is not in this position can understand just how devastating it is. Our crumbs of comfort come as on Monday when we attend the Royal Free and find that the cancer is still being held by the drugs being taken - with all their side effects. We both know that on one of these visits the consultation will start with the words "I am afraid that....... ". It has made me a perpetually angry person and although I try to use places such as this to escape from the real world the uninvited guest is ever present. Sorry - rant over.
I have been out and around this morning seeing the reaction in this rural area so far from Paris. Everywhere there are signs of outrage against these men, not against Muslims, as the population seem to be able to distinguish between the evil of terrorists and the religion. The outward signs of a silence and flags at half mast are for today, but tomorrow the nation will draw closer together in the main, although I am fearful that some with extreme right wing views will try to exploit what has happened. Je suis Charlie. I am Charlie. Yes, I do feel that my way of living in a free and open society has been attacked. I doubt that it will last for me, but for some directly involved the events of yesterday will be with them for ever.
I know and I am sorry; I try to keep the two worlds apart but sometimes my bitterness spills over. It is the fact that I feel - and am - totally useless to help; At home I have to keep an appearance of strength that I do not really have any more. Talk of god and his love etc etc makes me so angry. I cannot begin to put into words on a public forum my true thoughts.
I've been spending so much time on here recently to avoid thinking about a horrible and corrupt situation at work, which will leave some out of work. Possibly me. Still, that's nothing compared to what you have to deal with.
Don't worry - let's get back to talking about the horrible animals that this thread is about. They now appear to have robbed a petrol station north of Paris
Je suis Charlie. I despair at the state of the world. But 'twas ever thus. As a historian I know that throughout history the majority of good, sensible, level headed and caring people have been horrified by the actions of a tiny minority who pervert truth and humanity.
There are other issues involved here Leo. Whilst I consider the perpetrators of this evil act to be beyond contempt and, if caught, would prefer to see them tried in Iran or somewhere, however, I do not feel that I can say 'Je suis Charlie' or anything approaching it. This magazine had previously been criticized by both Jacques Chirac and the White House for its' ''overt provocation''. The Financial Times had also written an article about Charlie Hebdo and I quote: 'Charlie Hebdo has a long record of mocking,baiting and needling French Muslims. If the magazine stops just short of outright insults, it is nevertheless not the most convincing champion of the principle of freedom of speech`. I ask myself, what were their motives ? What are the motives of people who exist only to mock others beliefs and then hide behind the banner of 'free speech`. Where are the boundaries to 'free speech' - legally when it approaches incitement to violence - or when it includes racist content (why is only race covered here and not religion ?). Why is there so much outcry now - but so little when 120 + schoolchildren were murdered recently by the Taliban in Pakistan ? I feel the tragedy to be one of cold blooded murder - but do not feel it to be a central attack upon the principles of free speech - because I cannot relate to this magazine or to its Islamophobic message.
When I lived in Egypt, the fundamentalist Muslims stood at the main tram terminus with their collection boxes for donations and their green armbands, if they ever looked at me, it was not with a friendly expression. The one thing that struck me was that they looked like thugs, and very similar to the National Front thugs I had encountered in the UK. Intimidating people gave them a sense of worth. It is very easy to manipulate such people to increase their levels of violence. Every 'cause' can attract such people and these people can justify to themselves what they do. It sometimes take the very brave to stand up to them. The leaders of these people can then drag ordinary people into their orbit of belief. As some of you probably are aware, I spent the early part of my life in South Africa and I could give some personal examples of this as my parents were involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, but I won't as this is probably not the place. Nevertheless, I can say with certainty, that it is very easy to get people to do things to others because of ideological or religious beliefs. What democracies have to do is to starve violent organisations of their recruits without appearing weak - a tricky job. There will always be those that want to kill to gain power, but if they can get very little support they are stymied.
Very interesting, cologne. The 'race' and not the 'religion' coverage I would think is due to one being intrinsic and inherent, the other, not. I would compare attacks on religion to attacks on politics. Attacks on race to attacks on gender. Verbally take the rise as much as you like out of my religion or politics, but abuse me because of my race or gender and I will have something fierce to say about it. Having said that, I think a lot of Islamophobia is dressed up as that, but underneath is plain and simple racism. Perhaps yourself and ofh have a lot more experience of continental 'Islamophobia', I'm sure you do, but I would guess it is largely a mask for racism over there?
The general feeling here is that the magazine provided humour, almost in the same way that Spitting Image did in the 1980s and 90s. That program certainly was thought to be going beyond the bounds in the view of some, whereas others didn't see much wrong with poking fun at almost anyone. I would not have published some of the cartoons that they have, and I would not have bought one, but then I prefer to show respect to others and their beliefs than some do. There is a huge market for adult comics here, bandes desinnées, with millions sold each year. There is the Angoulême International Comics Festival attracting thousands of collectors and fans, so in that way cartoons are slightly different to those in the UK. France has the largest Muslim population in France, and frequently they are living in the poorest suburbs of the large cities. Whenever there are outbreaks of protest at the injustice they believe they suffer, the National Front start going on about sending them back from where they came from, despite the majority being born in the country. Without exception they are horrified at the events being carried out in their name, and have joined with the religious leaders in total condemnation. As I said earlier I am afraid that the NF will start to make totally untrue remarks in the coming days, dressed up as reasonable comment. What worries me when we start to talk about limiting free speech is that it will not be too long before those who control it also wish to control what we think and believe. We frequently see politicians trying to get elected repeating the same slogans long enough for some people to accept statements that may only be half-true at best. Judging by the level of debate seen here I doubt that many can be swayed from their own beliefs and standards, but not all people are the same.
The belief systems of certain fundamentalist muslims is not so different from the belief systems of Christians at the times of the Crusades, wen atrocities were committed against muslims and jews and Christians in the middle east and turkey by crusaders who believed God wanted them to do such slaughter. I remember sitting with a young by in the Atlas mountains when I lived in Morocco and him telling the mission of Islam was to convert the world etc etc. All a bit like old testament Christianity..... Unfortunately, couple poverty, alienation, a religious message and charismatic leaders and these belief systems are cooked.....
Indeed, yorkshire, I understand the crusading knights ate Muslim babies, which is as abhorrent as it gets. Police in NE Paris in "operation to detain suspects" after a gun battle with a car they were chasing believed to contain the suspects.
This is a very interesting debate and a lot of what is said makes me think and see things at different angles. I too have a feeling that the magazine was trying to provoke - however I still feel there is a right for everyone to be able to express their opinion and view even if I or others don't agree with them. Surely we are all reasonable enough to either ignore what others says if we don't like it - or (more reasonably) argue (verbally) our point of view. What we don't have the right to do is kill others for having an alternative belief. For my part I don't see why someone can't make a cartoon of Mohammed or Christ, Buddah, Vishu, God etc. - what harm does it really do? After all if these people are omnipotent then how does a cartoon effect them. Of course if all these are really fairy tale characters (as i think they are) then perhaps their 'power' diminishes each time someone denies them a bit like the tooth fairy. I would have thought that if religious people object to the cartoons then they should stand up and say so and say why and try to convince others of their view through debate and not through acting as monsters. Further it would seem to me there are far more important issues for religious leaders to debate than cartoon - poverty, homelessness, war, terrorism to name but a few. Do this and I will give you and your religions more respect. Je Suis Charlie
Oh wow Leo I did not know this and I really feel for you and Mrs L, I cannot imagine what you are going through. I agree with you about religion, I came to that conclusion in my teens. Have you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? It helped confirm many of my thoughts and gave me more to ponder. I dont think we will meet god but I have a few questions for him too!
