Col, you seem to be directing that one at me but as per our previous, you seem to only ingest half of what I say. As Swords said a few days ago, you are the one poster who manages to get under my skin. I assume my posts are equally provocative to you then so politely request that you put me on ignore and I will do the same (if it's possible in the new N606 format).
Cheers Matt, well put. Of course I feel that our ability to have this discussion on here, in the pub, or, if we were considered important enough, on the radio or TV, backs up my point perfectly! Ultimately, if you can't talk and even laugh about these things you lose the ability to think about them. I agree free speech is a very tenuous concept and we don't actually have it in the UK thanks to the 'incitement to hatred' laws. I'm very uncomfortable with these because I think it just drives views (that I personally do find offensive, but am mature enough to be able to hear them without killing people, and to understand that doesn't mean I have the right to supress them) underground and gives some kind of martyr status to those who hold them. I suppose lines have to be drawn somewhere, like we have on this site, in the interests of harmony. I'm glad I'm not responsible for drawing them.
Morning Col. Just read this whole thread and thought I would comment on one point in particular - re 'The Life of Brian'. I believe the answer to your question is approximately one thousand years. A thousand years ago, a Crusader might well have driven his sword through you for daring to take the name of Christ in vain. Crusaders waged war in the name of Christ to either convert the infidel or kill them. All this was sanctioned and, indeed, initiated on at least one occasion by God's representative on earth (from the RC perspective), Pope Urban. After a 1000 or so years, Christianity has evolved to understand that Christ's teaching was about love and tolerance and 'loving even your enemy' and certainly not the use of violence. The question is, can we survive another thousand years for Islam to come to embrace the same values, even if via a different prophet? We can only hope so.
this, except you don't have to go back 1000 years, remember the Papal/Spanish Inquisition which had people burned alive or their limbs torn apart (Spanish Inquisition was not definitively abolished until 1834). Thoughts are with the ones affected by this mindless act. But we have to remember it is the work of an extremist minority. We can not blame the whole muslim community worldwide for it.
I'm pretty sure I ingested all of what you said Matt. However, if I have misunderstood anything then I genuinely apologise. I am but a simple man and maybe I completely misunderstood you. A few other posters indicated that they liked my post, so I can only assume that they misunderstood you too (I haven't got into this like/dislike function personally). You're right of course that most of what you seem to believe is the polar opposite of most of what I believe. This is a forum and I'm very happy for you to comment on and disagree with everything I ever comment on. But I will respect your wishes and make no further comment on anything you say, although this does seem to go against the whole ethos of a forum.
Morning mate. You're right of course and the Crusades were a terrible period of history in many ways. However, I always find it difficult to judge today's morals by those of Centuries ago. I don't pretend to have any answers at all, but as I stated earlier, I really fear for my kids in this ****ed up World. It can only get much worse imo and I'm really not sure where it will all lead.
I've found the ignore feature so you can comment away although it might be frustratingly one sided. Nothing to apologise for just one of those things that's probably for the best.
Cheers Col ...you are absolutely right...this is a forum, and we are discussing an off-topic (ie not QPR) subject. We will agree, disagree at many different levels...but what everyone is showing is respect for other peoples views, even if they are "polar opposites" Thank you. We should comment on why we think people are "wrong"...and try to convince them to our view...we must not ever stop that happening here on the forum or in the outside world. And that is the fundamental issue ...what happens here on this stupid little thread...is a microcosm of what happens in the outside world. So please keep the free speech coming...and temper it with respect for all. http://instagram.com/p/xkaysJplPT/
They fear that this acts of terrorism will attract more followers to the terrorist groups of Al Qaida, IS and others. That might be true. But it also brings the rest of the world together in condemning it and recruiting more to the cause of free speach as well. please log in to view this image
Wwhilst ihonestly and totally agreew ith you Col, whole heartedly..You have to also remember the "Crusades" and what was done to other religions in the name of our religion. Im not excusing the attrocity in any way, shape or form except to say that all religions have been guilty of this at some time or another. Personally i wish they all (incl ours) slowly and painfully.... i think the bigger problem for you guys back home is exactly what those on "Britain First's" website are going to get out of this.....They will be secretly enjoying every minute. Sadly thats because many of thier views attract a lot of unknowing mainstream people that think they are innocently trying to protect british people & the British way of life. Nothing wrong with that ideal...its just the rest that goes along with it that will have the backlash in schools, communities and general meeting places up and down the country. Good luck guys. EDIT...Sorry Col (and others) i hadnt read the previous comments which were akin to mine.
I've read this thread with interest and everytime I've gone to comment somebody else (most notably Stan) have said exactly what I wanted to, only perhaps a little more eloquently. Anyway, I came across this from Nick Cohen this morning and think it sums up my feelings on the subject pretty well: "I offer you 10 truths that ought to be self-evident. A religion is not a race. Sometimes, not always, it is a system of violent beliefs that claims the right to subjugate others – most notably its ‘own’ coerced adherents. Undoubtedly there are white racists and Hindu nationalists who treat religion as a race and hate Muslims because they are Muslims. Their existence ought to present no problem to principled people, who should fight, criticise and satirise them with the same force and for the same reasons they fight religious obscurantism. Criticism of religion – including bawdy irreverent criticism— is a defence against oppressive power. In our time, the most oppressive religious movements are variants on radical Islam. That may change. You only have to look at Hindu fundamentalism in India or anti-Muslim Buddhist fundamentalism in Burma to see how. But for the present we must fight the enemies in front of us. What other choice do we have? It is not ‘Islamophobic’ to satirise radical Islamists and their beliefs – the main targets of radical Islamists include other Muslims as well as Christians, Jews, Yazidis and secularists. Even if in your confused liberal mind you think that it is, no one has the right to stop satire or criticism because they are offended. No one has the right to kill those who offend them. If they claim that right, they are the most deserving targets of satire and criticism imaginable. And if you do not then satirise and criticise them because you are frightened of ending up likeCharlie Hebdo’s dead journalists, or of taking a whipping in a PC backlash, how can you in conscience satirise left or right wing politicians you despise, or the evangelical Christians, Jewish fundamentalists, Catholic reactionaries, Russian orthodox Putinists you deplore? Are you not saying, if only when you are by yourself and think no one is listening: ‘I will only take on targets that won’t kill me, but steer clear of those who just might?’"
Calling them names and making fun of their beliefs is exactly what made them intolerant in the first place oh and of course there is also the fact that we may of killed a fair few of their people. What you call extreme is probably what i would call a natural reaction. We face many more of these attacks until the world is educated not to have these views. Yes this event is truly dreadful but there will be many more until people in power listen and compromise by talking … currently the view of the average man is that they are radicals. I see it as a complete failure by the west not to at least consider talking over how to stop these attacks Sending over troops into places we thought they were hasn't worked because people with the same general beliefs of historical injustice live along side us. What price has that cost us? Consider if any of us had seen the injustices they have seen. How would we act? I know very little of the Muslim way of life and what i do know it's certainly not what i believe in but i totally respect a fellow human being to believe in what he wants … I also firmly believe that these attacks are not born from nothing and so until some thing is done I think there will be many more soft targets taken out. We will therefore have to get used to it close to home I guess
Their beliefs, which exclude all other beliefs, are what made them intolerant. Muslims have inflicted enough injustice on each other (but also the Spanish for several centuries) for them to understand it a lot better than us. Do you respect the beliefs of someone who thinks it's his right to kill you and your family and blow himself up in the process, becuase they will be rewarded in some fantasy heaven? Could have been any one of us in those buses/tubes on 7/7. Do you respect the rights of someone who feels that anyone who wishes to leave his faith should be killed? Do you respect the Islamic State members who are using captured women as slaves? I refuse to tolerate such ignorance and barbarism, let alone respect it. I agree that more soft targets will be hit, the West/we are not blameless and that education (for all, including us) to the point that we can all look back and say 'people actually believed this bollocks?!?' is the long term solution. I really am getting a bit irate with all this respect business. Why would I respect people who have no thought of respecting me?
Charlie Hebdo: Norway didn’t give in to Islamophobia, nor should France The Charlie Hebdo killers want to provoke anti-Islam sentiment among the public, just as Anders Breivik did. But France must resist Owen Jones theguardian.com, Thursday 8 January 2015 12.40 GMT Three and a half years ago, the far-right Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik bombed Oslo, and then gunned down dozens of young people on the island of Utøya. His rationalisation for the atrocity was to stop the “Islamisation” of Norway: that the Norwegian left had opened the country’s doors to Muslims and diluted its Christian heritage. But Norway’s response was not retribution, revenge, clampdowns. “Our response is more democracy, more openness, and more humanity,”declared the prime minister Jens Stoltenberg. When Breivik was put on trial, Norway played it by the book. The backlash he surely craved never came. Here’s how the murderers who despicably gunned down the journalists and cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo do not want us to respond. Vengeance and hatred directed at Muslims as a whole serves Islamic fundamentalists well. They want Muslims to feel hated, targeted and discriminated against, because it increases the potential well of support for their cause. Already, there are multiple reports of attacks in France against mosques, and even a “criminal explosion” in a kebab shop. These are not just disgraceful, hateful acts. Those responsible are sticking to the script of the perpetrators. They are themselves de facto recruiting sergeants for terrorists. Social media abounds with Islamophobes seizing this atrocity to advance their hatred. Islam as an entire religion is responsible, they cry: it is incompatible with “western values”. They wish to homogenise Muslims, as though Malala and Mo Farah have anything in common with the sectarian murderers of Isis. Most victims of Islamic extremists are of course themselves Muslims: including Ahmed Merabet, the French police officer killed at close range by the terrorists in Paris yesterday. This is a dangerous moment. Anti-Muslim prejudice is rampant in Europe. The favoured target of Europe’s far-right – like France’s Front National, which currently leads in the opinion polls – is Muslims. France is home to around 5 million Muslims, who disproportionately live in poverty and unemployment, often in ghettoised banlieues. This incident should rightfully horrify, but it will now undoubtedly fuel an already ascendant far-right. The consequences? More anti-Muslim hatred, more disillusionment among already marginalised young Muslims, more potential recruits for extremist groups. There is a choice, of course. Norway’s enlightened response could be a model elsewhere in Europe too. It would be the last thing the attackers would want us to do. That, in itself, should give us all pause to think. http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu
That pretty much sums up what I was hoping to say to Paul as a reply, only far more eloquent than I would have managed. I respect anyone's wish to believe in any religion they so choose. I don't feel the need to kill them if I disagree though.
Not the same thing at all mate. I'm all for freedom of speech, as I think this thread has made pretty clear. But this is a football forum, and we have agreed rules to help it run smoothly and relatively harmoniously, as a place for QPR fans to primarily discuss QPR and football, not world events etc. It is easy for people to post stuff which is offensive to others (wittingly or unwittingly) in these circumstances, which detracts from the main purpose of the forum - football. There are other places to discuss issues (like immigration) which are likely to be very divisive, Nines is quite right in saying there's no point going down that road here, it will all end in tears. Bit ironic me making this point as I enjoy the OT threads (obviously the circumstances leading to this one are tragic), but if I post anything that others find offensive and the mods agree I would accept any censure without a murmur. Actually we are lucky to have a board with posters sufficiently engaged to keep a fascinating thread on a very shocking subject running for 8 pages with ony a couple of wobbles into dodgy areas.
You are welcome at my home in France when it all kicks off … I am fully prepared well I have a few walnuts left
