too critical? Our game yesterday had some similarities with the game we had with United, where we completely dominated them and were undone. I do not see their fans complaining, actually some of them were already beginning to believe they could win the league. Fair enough, we got dominated yesterday evening, it could have been a smash and grab (I however, get the impression, some of our fans would still not be pleased). We went into that game decimated by injuries in the middle of the pack, missing at least 3 key starters, we came out of the game with a point, which I thought was a decent point, and would have taken that at the beginning of the game! With us fans it is just difficult to gauge, play well lose, play bad win, play bad and get a point. Liverpool are no mugs, irrespective of what people believe, I saw them play against Manure, and should have gotten something from that game..... The way people are carrying on, it is like we got our backsides handed to us.....We need to take a chill pill.
Some are waiting to slag the team/manager off regardless of whether we win, lose or draw, regardless of the number of injuries we are carrying and regardless of how well the opposition played. Criticism is fine and often justified, but the unreasonable comments really twist my melon man Look at yesterday's match thread as an example. Flamini was and continues to be crucified, yet when you look at how Liverpool set out their midfield, he was on to a hiding and (through no fault of his own) might as well not bothered playing in the first half. Our having 10 players on the field wouldn't have changed that half one tiny bit, yet certain dogmatic haters continue blaming him. Another example of unfair criticism is that of the 'Unit'. Look at his contribution since coming back from a serious injury. No matter what he does he will not receive due respect, simply because some people made their minds up about him a year ago and their ego will not allow them to man up, admit they were wrong and get behind the guy. So yes, some of us are too critical & some of us aren't critical enough, but whichever camp we are in, many of us need to work on being less entrenched
It's difficult to get it right to be honest. There are obvious flaws with our team and manager, but show me a club that is perfect ? Criticism when justified is perfectly reasonable, I do it and I'd expect anybody else to. It's the OTT criticism when win, lose or draw that irks me and the way that some fans have made their minds up about players and hammer them at any given opportunity. I see a lot of criticism of Wenger when things go wrong, but absolutely zero praise from the same people when he gets it right. To be taken seriously you need to give a balance. Also, if you're going to criticise, you need to be able to offer an opinion on a solution really, otherwise it's just moaning and that is just tedious. I admit that I am more positive and less critical than most, that's probably because I'm a bit of an old fart (in comparison) and I've seen Arsenal over the decades, sometimes when we really haven't had a clue. I think a lot of the posters on here have only ever known Arsenal under Wenger, so it looks bad now compared to his early days. People say 'get rid, it can't get any worse' but believe me, it really could. Also, I'm from that old school of fans who support the manager and players even when things aren't going well. Like I said though, it's difficult to get the balance, there are things that I desperately want Wenger and Arsenal to address and put right, I think I'm fairly honest about those on this forum, but ultimately I'm a fan and I'll support the team.
They won the game, we didn't, so the comparison fails right there. It could have so easily been 3 points, Liverpool failed to take advantage of their domination, we took the lead, Liverpool were down to 10 men, and still with all of these things going in our favour, we couldn't hold onto the lead. AGAIN, and not for the first time, we failed to hold onto a lead when it mattered, and AGAIN, we failed to win a big game. So this isn't just a one off, this is something that happens a lot and as part of the grand context, this is the big problem with this club. But they didn't, United put them to the sword and got the 3 points, us on the other hand failed to hold onto the lead, and dropped 2 points, and yet again couldn't beat a big side. We've now failed to beat any of the big 6 sides, we're sitting in 6th, we haven't progressed at all over last season, in fact we have regressed, and rather than challenging or moving upwards, it's the same old same of fighting for top 4, so no need to take a 'chill pill', unless you want to ignore the bigger picture.
This.^^^^^ In spite of their deficiencies, Utd have 10pts from 5 games against the "big6". Arsenal have 4 from 6.
^^^We haven't beaten any of the big 6, and for ****s sakes people want to still keep pretending like us fans who get pissed off are just knee jerking to one result, it's beyond irritating. And it's not even just this season, this has been the story of the last 5-6 years with us against the big sides, but no we should not 'overreact' and take a 'chill pill' because obviously this was all just one game, off course, because you know we've been doing so incredible before the Liverpool game in all the other big games, (our previous 2 games against the big sides before Liverpool also happened to be 2 defeats, 2-0 to Chelski, and 2-1 to United AT HOME, but hey let's not 'overreact').
Wenger has had literally years to put things right, yet this season the team has gone backwards...again. No wins against any top sides...again...and he has still never beaten Mourinho...ever!! He will not win the PL again, he's scrapping for 4th again, he simply isn't up to the job, he needs to go. The fans aren't too critical, at any other club Wenger would have been out on his ass years ago.
We got a point yesterday, that we barely deserved. I had an argument with a United fan at work today, who was shooting off about not being able to beat a rubbish Liverpool side. One thing I told him was, with us Gooners the glass is never half full, but half empty. There is a general malaise sweeping our club almost fatalistic, almost like we cannot bring ourselves to be grateful. We scape a point (where in all honesty we should have been beaten), we labour the point how bad we were and also how we should have gotten all 3 points. Every game is not dealt with on, its own merit/demerit but rather a journey back to 6-7yrs ago. Why these constant obsession about beating a top 4/6 side, for me league titles are about winning on a cold night in Stoke, not glamour ties with how you perform against City/Liverpool/Chelsea. I just wonder, why we have to end each game (win/lose/draw) with a debate as regards whether Wenger goes or looking for scape-goats within the team. I think we should concentrate more on the positives in our team, we have lost Giroud, Walcott, Wilshere, Ramsey, Debuchy, Arteta, Ozil and Kos for long periods this season, (I wonder how teams like Chelsea, City etc would have coped)..... We have some heroes this season, Sanchez has been a revelation, so has Carzola and Welbeck....
It's not exactly easy to concentrate on 'positives' when you're lying 6th in the table and competing with West Ham for 4th spot, and also being 15 points behind the leaders Chelsea. So what positives exactly? Is that how low we have become? That even in these dire circumstances, which are not good enough for a club like Arsenal's stature, we're going to harp on about supposed positives? It's simple, for a club like Arsenal, who are supposedly elite, it's not good enough. If you genuinely think Arsenal are a big club, then there's no ifs and buts, you simply say for a club like Arsenal this position is not good enough, **** these 'positives', no other elite team in such a position would be saying there are any positives. And you're wrong, to win the league you do need to win against your rivals, history and the present shows that, but hey let's say you don't, and to win the league you have to win at places like Stoke, well heck, we can't even do that! So not only can't we win against the big sides, we can't even win at Stoke. Anyways, to win the league you do need to win against the big sides, have no idea what you're on about with that. When we won in 98, 2002, and 2004, a big part of that was down to us beating our rivals, we didn't win those league titles by simply winning at tough grounds, we beat our rivals which had a big role in helping us win the title.
That first half was the worst 45 mins I've seen from an Arsenal team that I can remember. It was a new low but more importantly it's the result of a long running decline in your ability to compete at the highest level. And you can make excuses for why it's happening or try and put a positive spin on it. But the bottom line is the manager is responsible for the mediocrity being displayed at Arsenal. Up until now I believed there were good arguments for and against Wenger. But now as an outsider with no axe to grind either way, I honestly believe that unless you take the courageous step to plan for life after Wenger, you could find a period in the wilderness. Even the argument tjat Wenger gets top 4 is no longer credible. Two reasons for this. Firstly, you just dont look in control of your season and are already playing catch up. Secondly, if you do make top 4 you have to question whether that's as a result of Wenger or the fact there's nobody good enough to take it from you? There were no positives from yesterday's game. The glass wasnt half empty yesterday, it was empty. Imagine the effect it's having on the confidence of talented youth like Debuchy, Monreal and even Oxladr to be a part of that every other week. It's getting to the point where I think the reason some may want Wenger is: - loyalty to a club legend (fair enough but at what point does loyalty towards the man comprise loyalty and ambition towards the club?) - misplaced faith that he will turn it around (little to nothing indicates that) - fear of losing what you already have (namely top 4, but that imo shows cowardice borne out of complacency. Sorry if that sounds harsh but you have to take calculated risks if you want to move forward in life, not just expect it bcos you've always had it. In any walk of life what happens is others move ahead while you sleep). Anyway, that's a genuine opinion not a wum. Agree or disagree that's your call, it's your club.
I agree entirely Treble. Thank you or your honest, outside opinion. The reasons for keeping Wenger are gone. If he delivers a scraped 4th place there will be those who say he has done well in difficult circumstances. He orchestrated those circumstances, he talked of title challenges, he has failed, yet again, to deliver.
I have said as such many times too, also as an outsider. I mean ****, Chelsea won the Champions league with a squad no better than the one you have now. We were far from the best team in Europe, but we pulled it off through tenacity, muscle, and mental strength......something your team is sorely lacking
I've said it before, I'm not opposed to replacing Wenger as it will happen sooner rather than later anyway. I just think we need to make sure that it done properly and we replace him with somebody who can do a better job, rather than change for the sake of change hoping that it will make an instant improvement, because the evidence of clubs like Liverpool, Utd and Spurs says that you can make a proper royal **** up of it.
We know. You've said it so very many times and it's a moot point. No-one wants him replaced with someone sub-standard, it's like me saying "I'll not pay £5 for anything that isn't worth £5" - it's extremely obvious. The more sub-standard he becomes, on a year-by-year basis, the easier it is to replace him.
Point is that some fans would have him sacked tomorrow and that would leave us in far more **** than we're in now. It's easy to say make a change, but making an effective change is much harder.
Sad to say but we have. It's like being in a long and boring marriage, the bitterness is creeping in...
I respect your opinion and agree with you that there is a lot of room for improvement. One thing I have however noticed on this forum is the entrenched view and the self-fulfilling prophecy of some fans. I think we need to be a bit more balanced in our criticism, it appears some of us are only ever happy when we are in a bad run of form.... They can then say, see I told you so. Some of us are so dogmatic in our views it is unbelievable, that we do not allow ourselves to see progress even it hits us in the face. I remember a time, we called for world class players, we have them now in abundance..... Fair enough, results on the pitch have not matched the investments on the pitch, but we are a work in progress, (at least we are no longer burdened by the Stadium debts, we can attract world class players, and we are.....) we are no longer fully reliant on untested kids, we have a wonderful stadium, with a loyal fan base. Ultimately AW will leave, and he will leave us in a much position than he found us.... The structure are firmly in place for the next man... I feel frustrated just like the next fan, but the difference with me, is that I am not encamped in that trench (some fans do not see anything good in our current setup, they only comment when things go bad). I just hope we can have a sense of proportion and try to see things in a rounded fashion. I can see we NOW have a talented team (ok sometimes not playing as one, but individuals), I can also see we have assembled a good team, better than we have done in recent times, I just hope we can add the required quality where it is needed. For me my frustration is not borne out of not winning the league, I just want my team to be able to compete, stay relevant in the league, not fall away before Christmas. One final question, I would like to ask is: Since our "fall" in fortunes coincided with the construction of the Emirates and paying for the stadium, now the financial restriction has been lifted and Wenger has abandoned his win it with Kids project, is it really fair to judge him for all those barren years, when he had to operate under severe financial restrictions? Should the clock really start counting from the past 2 seasons?
